SWTOR Darkness Assassin Tanking Class Guide

A guide to SWTOR Darkness Assassin Tanking for PvE. Written and edited by Invinc and Vindrik of Harbinger.

Overview

The Assassin Darkness spec is considered the most underpowered tank spec after patch 2.0, although some of this was slightly alleviated after patch 2.5. They use light armor and a series of talents and abilities to boost their armor rating, however their base damage reduction is still significantly lower than the other tank classes, while other methods of mitigation are higher. They have the highest threat and dps rotations, however managing procs and debuffs can make it harder to keep track of. Properly rotating cooldowns is an essential part of playing an Assassin tank due to their tendency to take more burst damage, giving them a much higher skill ceiling than other tanks on certain fights. They are the only tank that doesn’t have a charge ability, however they do have Force Speed to close gaps, as well as Force Pull to maneuver extra adds and boost aggro. An Assassin could be considered equivalent to the Mercenary healer of the tank classes, as it is the hardest to play well but gives the most utility of all the tank classes, and as such makes a better off tank than the other two classes.  Despite this, a well played Assassin tank should be equal with either of the other two tank classes in their main tanking ability.

Offensive Cooldowns:

  1. Recklessness: Gives your Force attacks an extra 60% chance to critically hit, consumes a charge when they do, and increases the range of your Force Lightning to 30 meters. Has 2 charges.
  2. Overcharge Saber: Doubles the damage done by saber charges for a short while, and also increases their chance to activate by 35%.

Defensive Cooldowns:

  1. Overcharge Saber: Immediately restores 15% of your maximum health, and heals you for a small amount whenever the effects of your saber charge are activated for the duration. Also increases all damage reduction by 25% for the duration of the effect.
  2. Deflection: Increases melee and ranged Defense chance by 50% for a short while.
  3. Force Shroud: Gives a 100% chance to resist all Force and Tech attacks for a few seconds.
  4. Force Cloak & Medpac: Using Force Cloak resets the restriction that only allows you to use a Medpac once per fight, allowing you to use it multiple times.

Tricks of the Trade:

  1. Single target and AoE taunts
  2. Overload: Frontal AoE knockback
  3. Force Speed: Massive speed boost for a few seconds
  4. Stealth: You become difficult to detect and gain access to some stealth-only abilities
  5. Force Cloak: Removes you from combat and places you into stealth
  6. Stealth Rez: Force Cloak and a manual rez while out of combat
  7. Phase Walk: Drops a beacon on the ground that can be activated while within 60m. When triggered, you are teleported to the beacon’s location. Any friendly targets within a small AoE of your Phase Walk also have 5% increased healing.

Darkness

Darkness (39 / 3 / 4): http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/assassin#1220322123212110223322-3-220

swtor-darkness-assassin-tanking-class-guide-build

Note: The two points in Thrashing Blades in the Darkness tree can also be used in Avoidance in the Deception tree for fights that require the shorter cooldowns (37 / 5 / 4). Also be aware that the talent calculator has not been updated for the patch 2.5 changes to Assassin tanking, though the talent places are still the same, the benefits that you gain may be different.

1.1 Rates (1-10):


  • Single Target Dps / Threat: 10
  • AoE Dps / Threat : 10
  • Group Utility: 10
  • Rotation Difficulty: 10
  • RNG Dependant: Yes
  • Defensive Cooldowns: 7
  • Spikiness: 9
  • Signature Ability: Phase Walk

1.2 Gearing & Stats Priority:


Secondary Tanking Stat Distribution

a) Author Recommended

Note: To get your total secondary stat pool, add up your shield, defense, and absorption in the character stats with a stim on.

  • Shield Rating: 32% – 40% of your total secondary stat pool. 36% = 900 Rating
  • Defense Rating: 16% – 24% of your total secondary stat pool. 20% = 500 Rating
  • Absorption Rating: 40% – 48% of your total secondary stat pool. 44% = 1100 Rating

b) KeyboardNinja’s theorycrafted numbers for ideal distribution

To use these numbers, you must add up you shield, defense, and absorption in the character stats with a stim on to get your stat budget. These numbers assume you are using Reactive Warding and Fortunate Redoubt relics as they are less accurate with other relic types. Lastly these numbers are for hardmode Dread Fortress/Dread Palace averaged and may not be accurate for future operations/Nightmare mode. Read this post by KBN if you want the full run down.

Stat Budget Defense Shield Absorb Full set
1900 418 606 876  
2000 423 647 930  
2100 428 688 984  
2200 422 741 1037 Augmented Arkanian (2181)
2300 412 798 1090  
2400 402 856 1142  
2500 394 913 1193  
2600 388 970 1243  
2700 383 1025 1292 Dread Foraged (2721)
2800 379 1080 1341  
2900 377 1135 1389  
3000 376 1188 1436  

Other Stats

  • **Must Have** Accuracy: 104% Force – 94% melee (1% from companion + 3% from talent = 0% from Gear)
  • *Must Have** Alacrity: 0%
  • **Must Have** Surge Rating: 0
  • **Must Have** Critical Rating: 0
  • **Must Have** Power: 0 (except for that gained by augments)
  • **Must Have** Augments: Shield (Shield) / Defense (Redoubt) / Absorption (Absorb) to meet the above percentages
  • Relics: Shield Amplification, Fortunate Redoubt, Reactive Warding (dependent on the fight, you can pick whoever two you need).
  • Set Bonus: 4 Piece Survivor’s
  • Dark Charge

1.3 Tanking Strategy:


Assassin Darkness spec is the tanking spec that tends to rely more on RNG, procs, and maintaining multiple abilities than other tanks. Dark Protection and Dark Ward are your most important buffs to keep up, and maintining them should be your priority. Dark Ward doesn’t cost Force but has 15 second CD and synergises with the Dark Bulwark talent, so each time you lose one of your fifteen Dark Ward charges, you gain a charge of Dark Bulwark, giving you an extra 1% Absorption per stack, up to a maximum of 8, making it so that your last 8 charges of Dark Ward are the most effective, as you have the Shield benefit from Dark Ward as well as the Absorption benefit from Dark Bulwark. Dark Protection, on the other hand, triggers when you accumulate 3 charges of Harnessed Darkness, causing your next Force Lightning to deal significantly more damage and giving you a stack of Dark Protection each time Force Lightning ticks (4 stacks). You should be striving to keep Dark Protection up at all times. Aside from doing so, the rotation is generally straightforward; Wither and Shock to build Harnessed Darkness, Discharge to maintain the debuff, Maul when it procs and spam Thrash to proc Energize, making your next Shock a critical hit and resetting its cooldown.

  • Dark Ward is a short CD ability which you should endeavour to keep active at all times. It increases your Shield chance as well as granting other boosts thanks to talents and set bonuses. More experienced players who are able to keep track of their buffs effectively can delay recasting Dark Ward until all of the previous Ward’s charges either expire or are consumed. Doing so will give you maximum Shield and Absorption for as long as possible before resetting it upon refresh.
  • Wither is a high threat ability with decent AoE damage, however unlike most AoE abilities, even when tanking a single target this ability should be a core part of your rotation. In addition to the targeted AoE effect and high threat generation, it also applies a -5% damage done debuff to every target it hits, which should be up on all targets at all times. It also grants a charge of Harnessed Darkness on use.
  • Shock is your best single target damaging ability, with the Chain Shock talent giving it a chance to do even more damage. The Energize talent makes it a guaranteed critical hit, while Electrify reduces its cost and increases its threat generation significantly. You should be using it as often as possible, as it also gives you a stack of Harnessed Darkness upon use. Using an Energized Shock while Recklessness is active also increases its critical damage by an additional 50%.
  • Force Lightning is a channeled ability that will give you 1 charge of Dark Protection per tick of damage, increasing your damage reduction by a total of 4% (1% per stack). You should only ever use Force Lightning with 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness in order to gain this buff, but any ticks that do not deal damage will not give you a stack of Dark Protection.
  • Discharge is another high threat AoE ability, making it excellent for an AoE rotation, and is used in single target fights to build initial aggro and maintain a -5% Accuracy debuff on the boss. Once your initial threat has been gained, however, Discharge should only be used to maintain its debuff, as Thrash and Shock spams are more important for generating stacks of Harnessed Darkness and higher damage.
  • Maul can be used when you gain the Conspirator’s Cloak proc from using Thrash or Assassinate, costing 50% less Force and being usable from in front of your target. It is excellent for burst damage, and should replace your next Thrash when available.
  • Assassinate is your sub 30% ability, and should be used whenever it is available, replacing Thrash, as it will still cause all the same procs while dealing more damage.
  • Thrash is your filler ability by design. While main tanking you tend to spam this ability a lot, triggering Energize as much as possible in order to Shock faster to reduce the time between refreshing stacks of Dark Protection, as well as triggering Conspirator’s Cloak.
  • Force Pull is a very important part of your opening rotation due to its high threat generation. It won’t actually pull a boss to you, but the threat that it generates as you run into melee range to continue your rotation is invaluable, as it’s the only real ranged ability that you have.
  • Lacerate is your AoE filler ability that replaces Thrash in your regular rotation. It is very expensive and doesn’t deal a huge amount of damage, but if you are tanking multiple targets and both Wither and Discharge are on CD, you have nothing else to use besides Lacerate. You should never use Lacerate if you are tanking less than 4 targets that are all taking damage.

1.4 Defensive Cooldown Explanation:


  • Dark Ward is your most important CD, as it gives a passive +15% Shield rating while active, in addition to a few other benefits from talents and the set bonus. Being able to keep it up constantly throughout entire fights makes it an incredibly powerful full time buff, as there are very few fights that are able to drain all of the stacks before you’re able to reapply it.
  • Phase Walk is by far the most important group utility CD from any of the tank classes, and is often not utilised by many Assassins. Using Phase Walk for positioning purposes is convenient, however it is far more useful to maximise the benefit given by the Assassin’s Shelter talent, which increases all healing done by those standing in the immediate radius of your Phase Walk by 5%. A common misconception is that the healing benefit granted by this ability is minimal and doesn’t really make much of an impact. However, any bonus healing that is available should always be taken advantage of, especially considering the enormous amount of total healing that ends up taking place throughout the full length of a fight.
  • Force Shroud is an excellent utility CD. It makes you immune to all Force and Tech effects for a few seconds, making a good Assassin able to avoid a great deal of otherwise frustrating mechanics, and mitigate a great deal of potential burst damage. Due to talents that reduce its cooldown, Force Shroud is available on a regular basis and can be used multiple times throughout any boss fight.
  • Deflection is a decent CD for a tank, giving you an extra 50% melee and ranged Defense chance, but although it gives you good mitigation for melee and ranged attacks, there is no added benefit for anything else, meaning that all Force, Tech, Internal and Elemental damage are not mitigated by it at all. Since these attacks are often the ones dealing the large spikes of damage, Deflection generally causes you to take less consistent damage, but doesn’t alter the big hits. Although this makes it more practical than a CD like Kolto Overload, it’s also significantly worse than Saber Ward.
  • Overcharge Saber is in general a very useful CD to have available. Although it has a relatively long cooldown, the on-demand and over-time healing it provides is an excellent benefit, and the flat damage reduction that it provides means that in many circumstances it’s actually a better cooldown than Deflection.
  • Force Cloak + Medpac is a very useful skill to have, and is unfortunately one that many Assassins either don’t utilise or even know about. Medpacs have a relatively short CD that could be used multiple times each fight, but a while ago an internal lockout was placed on them so that only one could be used per fight. A well-timed medpac can save your life, as can hiding from a boss to give your healers the extra few seconds that they need. The most common method while main tanking is to use Force Cloak + Medpac + Taunt to get the boss back, and while off tanking you can simply Force Cloak to reset the Medpac’s combat condition and hold onto it for later use. Remember that Force Cloak will always drop you out of combat, regardless of how fast you are pulled back in, either while trying to stealth rez or just trying to refresh your medpac. Just because you are a tank doesn’t mean that you should die to stop the dps from taking a hit on your behalf, so sometimes some calculated risks are required. However, when using Force Cloak it is always worth noting that while you remain stealthed, all healing received will be negated. As such, the moment that you use Force Cloak you should remove yourself from stealth, either by using another ability or removing the buff. If you are going to die momentarily and you know that the healers aren’t able to save you, you can Force Cloak to save yourself. Here are a few possible cases of what may happen:
    1. Melee dps takes aggro after you Force Cloak, the boss turns and hits him for the vast majority of his HP. You can either taunt back immediately, with or without using a medpac, and hope that your healers’ heal you enough before the next hit to keep you alive, or you can taunt and Force Speed away to give yourself an extra few seconds of safety. Keep in mind that this won’t work for all fights, as some bosses have ranged abilities or leaps that will actually increase the damage you take if you do this.
    2. Ranged dps takes aggro after you Force Cloak, and the boss has to run all the way across the room to get to them. This will give healers couple of seconds to heal you up, and a skilled ranged dps would have enough time to either kite momentarily or use a defensive maneuver to avoid the boss for a few more seconds or survive the hit. You taunt the boss back at an appropriate time and the fight continues. Again, in some fights the boss may leap to their target and give them less time to react, or may have a frontal AoE that wipes the ops. Always be aware of exactly what will happen if you decide to do this.
    3. The boss turns to a dps and immediately kills them. The healers can battle rez or stealth rez if available, after the fight is slightly less stressful and the ops is no longer at risk of wiping. The damage lost by having that dps dead for a few seconds may cost you some valuable time to beat an Enrage timer, but if you had died then before you could be rezzed, the boss probably would have killed a few extra people as well and likely would have become a wipe.
  • This strategy should only be used by skilled players that know how the fight is progressing with timers, resources, Enrage, and every possible aspect involved, as well as exactly what mechanics will come into play that could end in disaster if they decide to Force Cloak. A rookie tank, or any tank lacking awareness, will probably wipe the ops group when attempting this risky maneuver instead of saving them.

1.5 Group Buffs:


  • Wither: -5% damage done by all targets affected
  • Discharge: -5% Accuracy for all targets affected
  • Phase Walk: +5% healing done by all players within the AoE
  • Force Cloak: Allows for stealth rez

1.6 Ability Priority:


  1. Dark Ward: DW
  2. Force Pull: FP
  3. Force Lightning: FL
  4. Wither: WT
  5. Shock
  6. Maul
  7. Assassinate
  8. Discharge: DC
  9. Thrash: TH
  10. Lacerate

Defensive Cooldowns Priority:

  1. Dark Ward
  2. Phase Walk
  3. Force Shroud
  4. Deflection
  5. Overcharge Saber
  6. Force Cloak + Medpac

1.7 Opening Threat Rotation


Note: The use of Force Pull is only at range when running towards the boss, and Conspirator’s Cloak will cause you to immediately gain 4 stacks of Dark Protection upon leaving stealth. Taunt use is relative, depending on the fight and your ops group. Read the “How Taunt Functions” section to understand when best to use your taunts.

Opener 1: Stealth + Pre-cast Phase Walk + DW + Force Speed / FP + WT + DC + Shock + TH  + Shock (proc) + Recklessness / FL + TH + Shock (proc)

  • This opener depends on ideal proc rate of Shock from Thrash (If Shock doesn’t proc, you would need to wait an additional GCD for Shock to come off cooldown, which can delay cast of Force Lighting and your threat generation)

swtor-darkness-assassin-tanking-guide-opening-rotation

Opener 2: Stealth + Pre-cast Phase Walk + DW + Force Speed / FP + Shock + WT + DC + TH + Shock + Recklessness / FL + TH

  • This alternative opener does not depends on RNG (Shock is moved to the front so it will be up again when used. However you are delaying the use of Wither by 1 GCD which grants you 5% damage reduction on target)

swtor-darkness-assassin-tanking-guide-opening-rotation-2

1.8 AoE Ability Priority & Explanation


AoE Ability Priority:

  1. Wither
  2. Discharge
  3. Shock
  4. Force Lightning
  5. Overload
  6. Lacerate

AoE Ability Explanation:

  1. Wither is your most important single ability for both single target and AoE rotations. It helps to build stacks of Harnessed Darkness, as well as causing high threat and placing a damage reduction debuff on mobs.
  2. Discharge is the second ability that you will be using on cooldown when AoE tanking. It creates a high amount of threat, as well as placing an accuracy reduction debuff on all targets.
  3. Shock should be used between your AoE abilities to bolster your stacks of Harnessed Darkness, as maintaining Dark Protection is imperative regardless of what you’re tanking.
  4. Force Lightning is another filler ability, which you should be using while at 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness, and while your AoE abilities are on cooldown, in order to maintain your stacks of Dark Protection.
  5. Overload isn’t a particularly good AoE, and should generally only be used on packs that have boss immunity or to push targets into position, to maximise your group’s AoE dps. Even so, if your other abilities are all on cooldown, and Overload won’t knock your targets away from incoming damage, it’s a better choice than Lacerate as it is free of cost.
  6. Lacerate is probably the worst AoE ability in the game for any spec, due to its high cost and very low damage output. It should be avoided for the most part, however if your other abilities are all on cooldown, it is a better option to try and proc Energize than Thrash for the opening of your rotation. After the first two AoEs, you can resume using Thrash instead.

1.9 AoE Rotation


Note: Mastering the range of Overload is an important part of this pull in order to gain its full advantage. The sooner you use it while still hitting all your targets, the less time wasted by its GCD. The only difference if targets do not have boss immunity would be to remove Overload.

Pulling group at range, targets have boss immunity:

Stealth (if out of combat) / DW / Force Speed + Overload + WT + DC + Shock + Lacerate + Shock (proc) + FL + WT + DC

swtor-darkness-assassin-tanking-guide-aoe-rotation

Pulling group at close range, while in combat, targets have boss immunity:

Force Cloak (if feasible) / DW + WT + DC + Shock + Lacerate + Shock + FL + Overload + WT + DC

swtor-darkness-assassin-tanking-guide-aoe-rotation-2

1.10 Video


Video of a typical tanking in an operation

1.11 Tips and Tricks


  • Using Blackout often lets you get as close to a boss as you need to in order to place your Phase Walk in an ideal position.
  • Even with a 15 minute CD on Revive, you should always have it on your action bars so that it can be quickly accessed, and never be used outside of a stealth rez situation.
  • Recklessness is a purely offensive CD that also increases Force Lightning’s range to 30 meters, so if you either need to quickly push a phase while at range or need some fast extra aggro on another target, Recklessness may be the best option.
  • Force Pull can only be used between 10-30 meters, but its threat generation is excellent. Beside your opening rotation, Force Pull is your best option for getting initial or extra aggro on any mob who is not already in melee range.
  • Phase Walk’s cooldown will only trigger if you use it to teleport yourself. As such, unless you are main tanking and cannot maneuver around the room, as soon as your Phase Walk expires you can replace it again, meaning that for many fights the effect should be available for the majority of the fight.
  • Keep in mind you can use Force Cloak between phases and transition delays both to reset the restriction on medpac use as well as to gain 4 stacks of Dark Protection once you exit stealth.

1.12 General Tanking Strategies


  • Differently from dps cooldowns, tank CDs are not something you should be trying to use as much as possible in a boss fight, because you never know when something might happens that may cause the healers to need an extra boost in order to keep you alive. That being said, on fights that have high standard incoming damage with no mechanic potential for burst, it is generally a good idea to hold on to one cooldown in case of an emergency, but cycle through any others in order to mitigate as much damage as possible for the length of the fight.
  • A common mistake from average inexperienced Flashpoint tanks is thinking that taunt will basically keep the boss on you no matter happens, without understanding how it actually functions. The reality is that taunts do have 6 seconds where the boss will be forced to attack you, however immediately following that, if your threat is not high enough you will lose aggro again. As such, taunt’s real job is to keep you at the top of the threat meter, since a taunt will always give you aggro equal to the highest person on the threat meter, plus an extra 10%. This means that if you taunt during your initial pull, you will hold the boss for 6 seconds, but that extra 10% will be wasted, as 10% of a small amount of initial aggro is not as effective as waiting for a few seconds until your threat is higher before taunting, which will give you a higher increase and make it harder for the dps to pull off of you. Due to this functionality, you are best off opening with your high-threat abilities to hold initial aggro for the first few GCDs, and once dps start doing their highest peak of damage and threat a few seconds in, or as soon as you lose aggro, use your single taunt, as this will put you above the highest current threat by 10%, at which time the dps should use their threat drops. Good dps should know that after the first taunt is an ideal time to use their threat drop, as it maximises the threat cushion gained by the tank. This will give you enough room to hold boss for another few GCDs at least, before perhaps having to use an AoE taunt to do the same thing again. Following that, your single target taunt should be available shortly thereafter, and this method should secure you as the top threat for the remainder of the fight. If you are worried about threat in general, using taunt as it becomes available will boost your threat generation significantly, just ensure that you aren’t using it on cooldown in fights that require tank swaps, as you should always have it available when it’s needed.
  • The highest burst dps done in any boss fight is generally at the start of the fight, since everyone will have pre-cast their abilities and buffs and cooldowns, Bloodthirst | Inspiration, adrenals and relics. Because of this, asking a dps to push their damage as high as possible is essentially hamstringing your ops group, especially for fights that have tight Enrage timers. Initial tank rotations are specifically designed to generate enough threat to hold aggro off of any dps regardless of how good they are, so you should never be struggling for threat.
  • A great deal of tanks confuse the Guard tooltip’s PvE and PvP aspects, and don’t quite understand how it actually works. In PvE, Guard reduces the target’s damage taken by 5% and reduces threat generation by 25%. The 50% damage transference is only activated in PvP combat. This means that you should either be guarding the two highest dps if you are worried about losing aggro, or anyone that will be taking excessive mechanic damage as part of the fight.
  • A good tank should always be doing their best to try and make everybody else’s job as simple and easy as possible. As such, the boss should be tanked in place as often as possible, placed in a position where they are easily accessible to all members of the ops group, and never moved out of ground AoE when it’s not necessary.
  • Assisting with the group’s overall dps is always a good idea. Doing your best to deal as much damage as possible while tanking will help to push Enrage timers and burn phases, and will still generate a high amount of threat.
  • Being able to adapt quickly to emergency situations, such as an impromptu Stealth rez, is a must, and you should always be aware of ways to mitigate your own damage taken, and maximising the chance of a successful rez when this happens.
  • Adjusting your user interface to help you perform well is incredibly helpful, including enabling the target of target and focus target windows in your interface editor. Always knowing who your target is hitting and what your focus target is doing will help you to call out predictable mechanics, swap targets when necessary and be situationally aware of what is about to happen next.

1.13 How Taunt Functions


The taunt ability has a really simple mechanic that dictates how it works. Every enemy has a threat meter, which dictates who they will attack, the highest person on their individual threat meter will always be their target. Threat is generated via dealing damage and healing, and some abilities generate threat on higher multipliers than others. Taunting a target will instantly generate threat for you equal to the highest person on the target’s threat meter, plus an extra 10%, as well as forcing the target to attack you for the next 6 seconds. As such, if you are passed on the threat meter after this 6 seconds has elapsed, the target will return back to attacking the highest person on the threat meter. Taunting while you already have aggro will simply give you an extra 10% of your own threat. Keep in mind that the extra 10% threat generation is applied upon using the taunt, and regular threat generation continues accumulating for the duration of the taunt’s effect, so although taunt will give you an edge in threat, if the highest amount of threat on the boss is only low, then the 10% extra that you will gain is not particularly substantial. Because of this, especially early on in fights and during aggro drop mechanics, taunt is not a substitute for good initial threat generation through a proper rotation.

Asking dps to slow down at the start of a fight so that you can maintain aggro is something that will significantly hold back both your group’s dps as well as your own threat. Guarding two of your best dps is generally the best course of action, as it will minimise the chances that they will be able to catch up to you after your initial taunt rotation, but asking them to slow their dps is counterintuitive, as if they are dealing less damage then you can only taunt off of yourself, and as such may actually gain less initial threat. Due to the mechanics of taunt, you should be holding your initial taunts for a few GCDs to ensure that as much threat is built up as possible before you need to use it, and should a dps pull aggro from you that would be an ideal time to taunt. Immediately following this the dps should use their threat drop, so that you gain as much threat as possible, while they lose as much as possible and therefore the gap between the two of you is significantly increased

AoE taunt functions in the same way, and affects each target individually. Because each enemy has their own individual threat meter, each threat calculation is done separately, meaning that an initial AoE taunt on a fresh group of mobs can easily still lose aggro to healers if you don’t maintain threat on each target using other AoE abilities.

About the Authors


Invinc and Vindrik are both members of <Hatred> on Harbinger, an endgame progression guild with world 3rd clear of Nightmare S&V, World 2nd clear of Nightmare TFB, world 1st speed clear (under 2 hrs) of Nightmare S&V, and numerous server firsts at the 8m level.

Invinc is the guild leader of <Hatred> and mains an operative DPS but plays pretty much every and all classes for operations. He currently leads the parses on operative lethality DPS on multiple boss fights and dummy parses. Also known as Carlenux, Carlenix (sniper), Carlenx (Sorcerer), Pyrotec (Powertech)

Vindrik mains an operative healer and is the raid leader for group B in <Hatred> (World 5th speed clear of Nightmare S&V). He is the former raid leader of <Notorious Synergy> on Dalborra, one of the world top guilds pre-2.0 (World 4th).

While the information here are mostly written by these two players, numerous other Hatred raid members and guides were consulted. Questions, comments, concerns will be answered by Invinc, who goes by the name of Carlos Eduardo Mata in the comments section below.

  • Thomas Gennaro Jeffers

    Shadows/assasins have the highest mitigation and survivability, especially after 2.5
    Just Fyi

    • Medievalhorde

      This is also accurate. They are the mitigation tanks, always have been. It’s when they fail mitigation checks they become spiky.

      • Ancaglon

        Only if you define mitigation to mean “actively reducing damage taken BEFORE it’s further reduced by armor”. Google’s definition is “the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something”. The difference for SWTOR Tanks is that VG/PT and Guardian/Juggernaut “reduce the painfulness” more by virtue of their (passive) heavy Armor than by (active) Dodging or by using their Shields to Absorb some part of some attacks.

        • Carlos Eduardo Mata

          often in MMO mitigation is considered anything that would reduce dmg not taking in consideration Base Stats, in other words Base dmg reduction and Base Endurance, because regardless of what you do, a full BiS Ssin will have the same dmg reduction than any other ssin, same for other classes, and eventually if using the same mods the same endurance, so the Mitigation part comes from, how much of the dmg i can actually reduce from other sources, thats why assassin is considered the highest mitigation style tank, with high over 50% shield and 20% defense and high Absorb, where an assassin has 50 + 20 + 40 = 110 a jug has 23 + 40 + 35 = 98 or a PT has 22 + 40 + 35 = 97… so basically in Theory assassins have 13% more Mitigation than other tanks, this by no means translate to less dmg taken or being a best tank, there are other factors that apply here.

          • Ancaglon

            Umm. This isn’t even a remotely useful way of looking at it. If an attack is Defended, it is not affected by Shield or Absorb — so a high Defense chance devalues Shield and Absorb. Additionally, it’s pointless having high Absorb but low Shield, because you can’t Absorb an attack unless you Shield it — and conversely, if you have high Shield but low Absorb, again, the effect of that Shield is greatly reduced. And these don’t work in isolation, because you are not free to increase one of these stats without decreasing one or both of the other 2.

            This is why all 3 need to be balanced in the context of how much damage can be Defended, and how much can only be Shielded and Absorbed.

            • Carlos Eduardo Mata

              it is actually an useful way to see it, because everything in game has variables, so you cant give a perfect number or statement on everything, if you test with 100% of mobs doing tech dmg is different result than 100% of mobs doing internal dmg, or 33/77 or any combination so under your perspective there is no way to measure mitigation, and it should be measures by the kind of test dummy used that are attacking you.

              a simple and convenient way of seeing why they have higher mitigation is that, just grab all your % and sum them up, eventually giving a noticeable advantage on assassin for obvious reason most coming from dark ward, as your stats should be balanced according to this stats, way higher absorb on ssin with a decently high shield + dark ward will end up having way more shield % in general with a very high absorb to work with it, there are way too many variables and all depend on the test subject you use to deal dmg to do an accurate math… unfortunately people here dont come to do math or work, thats for school or work, they come to play, they want it explained an easy way they dont have to think much to understand, regardless if it is true or not (as it is not exactly true thanks to the many variables that you can add) it reflects an accurate demonstration of why / who is considered a higher mitigation tank than the other (that they were asking) for more information the theorycrafting post on KBN forum threat has the exact numbers that would back this up in a mathematical way :D.

              • Ancaglon

                … that just suggests to me that you really don’t understand the fundamental mechanics of how the 3 mitigation stats work together, despite what I thought was a very simple explanation. Comparing Apples and Oranges, is the English expression, meaning that you’re equating things that are not the same.

                While you correctly point out that different encounters will have differing proportions of defendable and non-defendable damage, you seem to dismiss the fundamental objection as being too complicated.

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                i do understand, most of it, but people dont, to write a guide, or to explain someone how something works when they wont understand it most of the time, and this comes from leading a guild/raid since release, not for class experience, and probably another point in favor against many comments, people dont understand how hard it is to explain someone something that for you seems really simple, even if the guy is outstanding and one of the best, trying to explain something can be quite difficult.

                so thats why i say, the simple the better regardless if it is “theoretically true” or not, they want to know what something mean or why / how u do something, they dont want an explanation of why it happens, most of the time u try to explain them why and they say “i dont care just tell me how u do it and ill do it because it works” so it is really pointless and a waaste of time coming here trying to explain for example KBN math, when majority of the people will say, WTF i dont care about this, just tell me the numbers if they work and ill use them.

                if someone specifically ask why something, for example why cull dmg affecte WB, ill explain it, but i wont explain in a guide that every aspec of cull extra dmg is poison since must people just wants to know “cull + WB = more dps, check” :).

    • Thomas Gennaro Jeffers

      Mitigation is most accurately defined as reduction on the external healing needed. Shadows take the least damage overall out of the tanks by a fair margin abd require the least external healing. It is WHEN and HOW they take their damage that makes them spikey. And for the record today shadow/assasim tanks spikeyness has gone.down dramatically making it almost unnoticeable.

    • Gardimuer

      It’s pretty disappointing to see Dulfy relegating Assassin tanks to the offtank position and continuing to spread the ‘lowest mitigation’ misinformation from pre 2.0. Personally, I go to KeyboardNinja’s posts in the SWTOR forums for actual accurate information.

      • Carlos Eduardo Mata

        they are a secondary tank honestly, beside tha the lowest mitigation is just a translation mistake, just that should be lowest dmg reduction, thanks for the heads up!.

        anyways jst FYI it wouldnt have been a misinformation from pre 2.0 because pre 2.0 ssins were not only the highest mitigation (by far more than now) but were also OP – FoTM tanks thanks to the high amount of secondary stats up to EC NiM :). it changed upon expansion since the new formula for items were reduced, now getting less benefit gear stats (its like starting over from tionese again) therefor the assassins were gaining not as much mitigation to back up their style.

        thats why the change on assassins were made also thanks to the spikeyness, anyways extra dmg reduction didnt seem to help improve much as it is till considerably lower than other tank classes a lot of people even considered a nerf or “removing the special thing assassins had” and without the healing capabilities is just like any other tank class that gets hit for more depending too much on Mitigation (as usual) that is , in fact the best on support (offtank) but subpar as main tank compared to the others, this doesnt mean u cant main tank with them, you can do anything you want with any class, but their performance is way better better used as offtank, less minutes tanking gives you room to exploit longer the use of your CDs which are really good giving you a nice confort zone to survive while the other tank recovers from theirs, either way if you have No Cd jug / pt vs no CD ssin tank, the jug / pt should be taking the dmg at that point while assassin do other useful thigns (wither, discharge, assassins shelter, and insane dps as off tank, stealth rez) thats why it is a better utility off tank than actual main tank.

        • Medievalhorde

          Fairly accurate. The best use of a sin is taking the pressure off of a main tank when the fight requires it. There aren’t very many fights like this as a majority of them all require a tank swap anyway, but Sins aren’t meant to be face tanks. They are useful when abusing their cooldowns. difficult fights like Trasher for instance are silly easy when you get knocked up if you use your deflection or overcharged saber when you AoE taunt the snipers. That’s 12 or 15 seconds of barely getting touched and it’s easy to rotate the cooldowns if you are swapping with the other tank each time. It’s in those instances where sin tanks really shine.

          I don’t really understand the idea of main tank and off tank. I mean you’re still a damn tank, why would you want to take more damage and make your healers lives harder if you don’t have to. Knowing your class also means knowing what your character is good at and face tanking isn’t one of them. If I have a cooldown going I’m the best mother fucker in the instance and I know that sin tanks are awesome as a tank, even if we aren’t meant to take crap to the face for the entire fight.

          • Ancaglon

            EDIT: Never mind, I just read KBN’s response, and while I don’t agree with everything he says, he’s right on all the main points. I’ve no idea what you play, Medievalhorde, but you’re fairly definitively wrong.

            • Medievalhorde

              I’ve cleared all of the content in the game as a sin tank, I’d like to think I know the class fairly well. My opinion won’t change though. Sin tanks are not the optimal face tank. They have better uses elsewhere. Doesn’t mean they can’t face tank, but I believe they are the ideal offtank. At least much more so than the other two and are never a bad choice to take.

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      i see where is the mistake now, the “lowest mitigation” was supossed to be Lowest dmg reduction, i guess it got lost in the Translation / editing, since my main language is not english i had to use someone to help me Translate / edit some of the stuff and like this one might have been lost / mistaken in the translation. thaanks!

      Edit: by no means i am blaming the Editor for this btw, i am a terrible writer he converted this from a lot of random words / information to something that makes perfect sense and easy to read, just saying there was a mistake somewhere either me, translation or anywhere that caused the mistake, the guides were a hard work, writing almost 80-100 pages for 30 specs + mirrors is not an easy job, tanks were the last one, so a human mistake trying to define Dmg reduction with Mitigation after so much writing is also a possibility for the fault :D

  • Thomas Gennaro Jeffers

    Also the Bis relic is the reactive warding not the SA.

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      that is completely up to preference, i asked to have it added in the alternatives for the relics thx!

      • Thomas Gennaro Jeffers

        This is a mathematical BiS. Sure everything is up to preference but not always reasonably. To date there is no fight where the SA or FR out performs the RW relic

        • Carlos Eduardo Mata

          i wont argue with you or not on that, since i have not done the “math” myself, neither i trust math done by people in the forums, anyways like i said it will be added as an alternative, unfortunately for the test ive made i have not find any specific improvement and prefer to go that way, math and playing are completely different things, not saying the math is wrong or you are wrong, all i say is that for what “i” have tested, since “i am” the one writing the guide, “i” prefer that, i will not use someone else information or someone else math that is not done or tested by me, because like i said, it is not tested by me, then it wouldnt be a guide from my / our experience, but a guide using someone elses information, anyone can do that, so it will be added to the alternatives and people will be able to choose if they prefer this alternative from my experience not following math, or they prefer the Math guide on forums, either way works :) and people is free to choose.

          then again i wont use, propose or offer anything taken from another guide / math not done by me or tested by me because i have no proof of that and is not my information :)… anyways thanks for the feedback again.

          • Thomas Gennaro Jeffers

            Fair enough.

            • Carlos Eduardo Mata

              the guide was edited to reflect it a bit better on the relics for your feedbacks :).

  • Spinez

    Dulfy, the first sentence after the title is “A guide to SWTOR Shield Tech Powertech Tanking for PvE. Written and edited by Invinc and Vindrik of Harbinger.” Copy-paste error I think?! :)

    • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

      Oops, good catch. thanks. Indeed a copy/paste error :p

      • Spinez

        Thanks for posting these guides!

  • Medievalhorde

    Pretty accurate for the most part. Only two concerns.

    Defense Rating: 16% – 24% of your total secondary stat pool. 20% = 500 Rating

    This is inaccurate. 500 is ~22.78% Defensive chance. It’s within arguable ideal numbers so I can’t say nay to it even if it is a bit high for sins. This is of course if you spec into premonition for the two extra defense.

    Rotation Difficulty: 10

    Nigga please.

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      i like having more Defense, i find that assassins gain a lot of benefit from shield abosrb as it is obvious, but shield until some point is useful, but having few extra defense rating to fully avoid melee and ranged attacks gives you “in my opinion” regardless of the maths, a more comfortable tanking zone, Taking in consideration old nightmare content, the extra defense is awesome for the hardest tanking fights like trasher snipers ,or tuchuk… but this is as well up to preference and of course depending on the boss fight :).

      • Medievalhorde

        Don’t need to tell me, it’s a difference of opinion. There’s a reason I’m in your guild bro. I ain’t a fucktard and I’ve done the content. I’m only pointing out 500 is not 20% it’s much closer to 23% defensive rating if speced correctly. I mean I run 400 defense, 950 shield and 1200 absorb so it’s not that far off anyway.

        • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

          Haha I wonder who this is. Buffassassin?

          • Medievalhorde

            Remari, team C’s tank.

            • Carlos Eduardo Mata

              remari likes to troll like that, scrubington ssin tanks >_>

  • Stefano Inox Innocente

    dulfy do you need a guide for Assassin Infiltration?

    • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

      I do not as guides for every role/spec is already written, just need me to format them properly and publish them. Assassin DPS is actually the next guide we are publishing :)

      • Phira

        Sooo cool!!! There will be guide also for pvp?? I can’t wait for all the guide. Awesome!!!!!

        • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

          Sorry no PvP guides planned atm as none of us really pvp at the high end level. This might change if I find someone who does :)

    • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

      But you are always welcome to see what we have written and offer your critique/suggestions :)

      • Stefano Inox Innocente

        ok thanks cause I will do for sure Cuz I play just Infiltration from day1 :D, Gj.

  • Vortex Vids

    Awesome!
    Cheers Dulfy, just waiting on one more I want: The Jugg tank guide! :D

  • Quish’ian’adur

    Hello Invinc

    Before i ask a question I wanted to thank you (and of course Vindrik and Dulfy) for rhe hard work. Especially your loggs always pushed me to find the limits of my scoundrel.

    I have a question about the Relic Joice in your Tank Guides. I myself main a Vanguard tank (currently my raid but i also play the Shadow and Guardian Tanks. When the new passiv Relics came out with 2.0 I went with those, but I found them to be kinda random due to their procc chance. For me, they always procct during phases the procc was wasted, resulting in a loss of the procc when I could have needed it. So i switched back to two om use relics to use as extra active def Cookdowns. Especially the Def Relic combined with the adrenal gives I nice boost Tough I wouldnt go as far as saying Active Relics are better than passice Relics or vice versa, i find them a fair alternative to match a playstyle.
    So badically I wanted to ask, if there is a certain reason why the active relics arent listed as an alternative for the Procc Relics.

    Thank you in advance and keep up the good work!

    • Quish’ian’adur

      well something got mixed up on my Keyboard. I wanted to write that my raid is currently on TFB Nightmare and DP and DF HM as an adfitional info

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      basically without going too much in depth with math and stuff, your relics should cound as any other piece of gear as far as stats, lets say a click relic gives 250 Defense Over 20 second with 2 1 min 30 CD, imagine a 5 minute fight, this means first you have a 300 Second fight, then you have 250 X 20 Seconds = 5000… considered it is used 4 times with the fight length its 20000 / 300 Seconds = 66.6 Overall Defense for a 5 Minute fight, in other words this relic has a value of 67 Defense Overall. Now a proc Relic 750 (i dont remember exact numbers just teaching u how to) for 6 Seconds on a 20 Second CD… this means you have to 300 / 20 = 15 + 1 from use on second 0 to know how many times internal CDs your relic has in a 5 minute fight, considering it procs for 6 seconds its 750 * 6 = 4500 * 16 times per fight:= 72000 / 300 seconds = 240… now this relic has an average value of 240 Defense rating overall for a 5 minute fight… you could reduce Procs thanks to RNG and calculate with 11-12 procs, 4500 * 11 = 49500 / 300 = 165 Rating, it is still higher than click Relic.

      In other words, when calculating the Overall secondary stat gain from click Relic to proc, proc have an average way higher Stat value, the only good thing about Click is it is “somehow” a CD that MIGHT be useful in Certain fight, but considering you are holding it as a CD., the actual use will be less than 4 times per fight, so basically consider yourself going into a fight with 240 defense less in exchange for a 1-2 times Use “Decent Stat boost CD” :)

      • Medievalhorde

        Proc defensive relic also gives a static 39 defense and 740. the expected proc rate on it is roughly ~23 seconds which would give it an effective rating of 193… Defensive rating a second with an additional 39 defense is 232 defensive rating every second.

        740*6/23+39

        • Carlos Eduardo Mata

          there you go a better explained math with more accurate numbers.

  • Rondowar

    One tip I’ve heard for opening boss fights:

    Let the OT (pref a sin) start the fight (go full on threat gen)

    After some seconds the MT (who also went full on threat) taunts the boss.

    That way the MT will have a really nice amount of starting aggro :)

    Obviously it works with any tank combo, but a sin will often have the
    highest threat gen making that the most ideal OT (at least for the
    opening phase)

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      this is a good tip if you having issues with threat, it should not be necessary at all, but it is a great idea.

  • Ancaglon

    The only time that the Phase Walk teleport is actually useful for me as a PVE tank is when I’ve ended up stuck behind a tree during the Styrak fight on S&V (after a Force Pull has hurled me there). Post-2.5, it is only rarely useful — during Dread Fortress Draxus fight, you may have time to re-place it between waves, or if you are off-tanking only, but most other events require too much running around.

    Also, the 12 seconds duration on the new buff in 2.5 (Shadow Protection or Dark Protection) is too tight — 15s would be more comfortable.

  • Rondowar

    “Rotation Difficulty: 10″
    does that mean it’s hard or that it’s easy? /confusing

    I think it’s pretty easy, but some might have problems with it

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      10 means its the hardest tank rotation, unfortunately is seems straightforward as far as threat, thats why they highest rating on threat too, but keeping up a good rotation as well as keeping up your stuff maximized are way harder than other tank, not only because the D.P new mehcanic is a must to have up all the time and with mechanic can be difficult, but also the way to maximize Dark ward requires A LOT of micromanagement compared to PT brainless rotation and Jug follow the CD rotation :).

      • Rondowar

        yeah true, the FL rotation stuff is quite OK, but maximizing DW is quite hard, I forget that way to often xD
        I have no idea how hard the other tanks rotation are, but I know this one isn’t as hard as some of the dps rotas, but that depends on the kind of person, if you like staring at buff bars, this is quite easy :)

  • Mackkan

    It is pretty good of a post. Minor thought, I personally take Electric Execution instead of Hands of Darkness. I think the extra threat generation is more important that the endurance. And I take Shroud of Darkness, my thoughts are out of stealth spike has great utility in almost all trash pulls in ops. So I only put 1 point instead of two in Torment. With the increased force regen in the tree I don’t feel it required to reduce thrashs cost further

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      first for spike, i bet they do, but trash is…useless, trash is cleared without tanks, with 3 people, skipped, i mean, its trash, it doesnt count help you should NEVER pick something that will help you outside a boss fights and not in a boss fight. Boss fights are the progression and are the milestones, by the time u are doing nightmare timed runs most of the “trash pulls” become a 10 second Rolfstomp of AoE destroying the poor guys where healers just dps instead of healing to kill faster there is absolutely no requirement for anything to help on trash :).

      as far as electric execution instead of shroud of darkness is a mistake too, go over to powertech Guide in the comments theres a discussion for it too where i pretty much explain all the possible examples i can give to teach people how they are wasting or trying to argument on not taking a talent that is a MUST TAKE without thinking. as far as electric execution, beside the fact that the actual saber charge does very low dmg, the buff is real small so not really useful as far as dps, and as far as threat being a ssin thats the lesat thing you should be worried, if u start with the opener up there, if u have same gear lvl as your fellow dpsers, i guarantee you no one in this world will take aggro from you, the amount of threat generated by force pull and your abilities is insane… so chosing something for “threat” is not really an option to not take an endurance buff, other tank class with half the threat generation of ssins can hold aggro without problems, you dont need an “extra” threat, if any ssin cant hold threat it is either gear or hes doing something wrong :).

      as far as torment, just because the regeneration is high doesnt mean you dont need to help it more, 3 cost on shock means at 10 shocks you get 1 Extra free shock, this means you are able to spam even more of what you spam , on other words just because something is easy or good enough doesnt mean you wont use something that will help it become even easier or better :D.

  • Noroxus

    Your defense is wildly too High…way, way, waaay too high. It should be 19-20%. Though I personally run 18.47 which is…165 rating? Something around there.

    Your shield is low…not sure how it’s at 900. IIRC just from high Mitigation Enhancements…even low mit ones, it’ll be past 900. So…72s?

    As far as augments, Endurance should be added. If you run the HP build you’ll have about 50.8k Health, about 19% defense, same shield (can’t remember the number off the top of my head) and around 45% absorb. If you were to run full Absorb augments (only a fool would run or recommend shield augments…) you gain a chunk of absorb. Currenty in my gear that’s 7%.

    The highest damage difference between endurance augments and absorb augments I’ve ever seen was 6.5k. Total. Not one hit, I mean over the entire fight. If your healers can’t heal 6.5k, fire them.

    Now even if we were to go the pure full Mit route, which is what i ran for a very long time, and tested End against and low defense against…you’re telling people to have 500+ Defense for Palace? Are you mad? Defense is near useless there. For Fortress I -could- understand that (even though your healers won’t feel any difference, neither will you).

    You should also include all the mechanics you can cheese. No adds on TWH, Solo tanking Brontes, etc. Also that you should just sit there if shock is sub 2 seconds on its CD (in most situations) and do nothing. Because activating the GCD will delay shock, and cause you (risk you really) to lose 4% DR. This is something most sins don’t know it seems.

    Relics are again wrong according to math, but I’ll test in live since good sin tanks are hard to find it seems…

    • Cipy

      If you look at the indicated mitigation stats there’s a range and not a set number (16% – 24% for defence) the 20%=500 rating is just the middle point of that range and I assume it’s for people to make an idea.
      There’s not just one right way and if you’ve read the other guides and some of the comments it’s easy to see that.

      You have your preferences on how to tank/heal/dps, if it works for you good, but that doesn’t mean it’s absolutely right or the one and only way to do it.
      And also, there’s just a short paragraoh on the stats, it’s clear that this is not the main purpose of this guide, which is great.

      If you want to nerd it out on stats there are plenty of threads on the SWTOR forums that deal just with aspect, but it takes a lot more to be a good tank than have the “optimal” stat distribution. And if you can’t tank DP HM even with 500 defence rating then you have a problem. The content in this game isn’t at all that demanding to be that hrdcore on optimizing. Hell, there are people that clear the HM dread ops in arkanian/underworld…

      • Carlos Eduardo Mata

        this guy understand the purpose thanks for the reply :) also thanks for the Feedback from both of you!

      • Noroxus

        Ah…then for people who want to min max, these guides are…sub-optimal. That’s unfortunate…but if this is catering to the beginner; it should include all the information for different ways to build stats I think. As this comes off as the only way to gear a sin. Which is spreading bad information.

        In the end…isn’t that the point of a guide though? To go over every last bit of information, and spread most if not all the ideas and the facts behind them?

        Shouldn’t we really call this an “introductory” (which is still incomplete, I’d suggest getting a Main Sin / Shadow to write it)

        As for tanking with 500 defense, yeah you can clear it. You can also clear it with a marauder using a level 10 green sabre as their main hand…doesn’t mean you should. Nor that you should advocate it lol.

        • Carlos Eduardo Mata

          the guides and the numbers are good, if you dont like them you can use something else but its entirely up to you. this is a guide not a theory crafting forums, we are not discussing optimal numbers and math here, i am writing a guide from experience, an experience almost nobody has in this game and a lot of people will find valuable.

          unfortunately the majority for the math lovers in the forums are people that prefer to play with numbers than killing bosses, not to say some of the best players dont theory craft, but they often just go with experience and common sense instead of breaking down every single formula of the game, because if all the math lovers and numbers were right, then everyone in the game would be as good as the best right? but they are not.

          if you had a good argument on anything here i would be able to argue with you, but you are just a random account hiding behind someone else information from the forums, basically saying something is wrong because, you say its wrong, the bad thing is that the majority of the “random Accounts” believe they know more than everyone else, just because they clear hm DP and DF but thats not true, that content is a joke that was cleared without previous practice in 1 day, and you notice the difference between a good player and someone that think they are, when you see a good player argument they argue with their own ideas and numbers, give Critics to “discuss” and usually dont approach saying ” this sucks because this say or i know this is like that” they give advices and open a discussion, the casual player that thinks they know what they are doing approach using other people information affirming that what they say is true because its true and this is wrong because your other sourcs says so, not having 1 achievement in the game remotely close as any of the writers or reference of this guide.

          anyways if you dont like it dont use it, if you want to point something out, critic the way its written or explained, but dont discredit something that is coming from reference and knowledge from some of the best players of the world, because counting the best 5 16 man guilds and 7 best 8 mans, you get 136 players considering most have multiple groups, lets say there are probably 250-300 players around the world with the knowledge, skill or achievements comparable to the writers of this guide, the rest are behind or far behind, probably including most of the ” math lovers”.

          by the time i had 4 Dragonslayers and my guild had 6-7 weekly clear / title runs there were only 5 groups in the world capable of doing such things and two of those groups were from my guild, the 1st and 5th (not using alts), one of which used a ssin tank for its full Clear for world 5th, and multiple alt runs using ^ information, by the time i cleared with one of our multiple alt runs with my ssin tank or any of the other class because i did with all 8, for both title runs, the 99.9% of the gaming population couldnt even get pass 3rd boss or even try 1st boss in nightmare :) and thats what the guide is for to help people improve as players to increase the numbers of good guilds and competitive raiders.

          so i respect your opinion and critic, but i honestly wont accept you trying to discredit My or Our information from our guild, that worked to be ranked 1st overall 8 man in the last real content against some incredibly good and skilled guilds, because all the information here on all guides (beside random mistakes or fixes that can happen to anyone) come from the best possible sources worked hard to provide some of our expertise and knowledge to help all the community we can reach :).

          if you are of that 300 group of players that could be considered and are obviously considered just as good as us, go ahead and write your own guide, explain all your experience there, do all the theorycrafting, write down all your achievements there to validate your info, and then compare it to ours, and people will be able to choose which one they prefer, thats what guides are for, to give an alternative follow, but dont come to discredit our information being a random account on a webpage using other people information.

          arguments / Critic / Discussion Yes go ahead. Discrediting nop sorry, write your own guide and let people decide which one they want to read.

          Edit: Btw this one was for norox not cip lol /facepalm

          • Noroxus

            You claim experience…yet have none of what I discussed. I gave you critic of stats, You responded by dodging the subject. I bid you farewell, but do thank you for putting out an ok stepping stone for new tanks.

            • Carlos Eduardo Mata

              i didnt dodge the stats, i discussed the stats with the owner of the information with KBN, i wont argue you, something yuo didnt write or didnt back up, as well as i argued you saying i dont believe in math i would rather use something that have worked for me / us.

              either way it seems like u know a lot of the class so you should have no business here of course :) just like 99% of the community everyone knows everything and that is represented in progression lol, so anyone that believe this is not a guide, or not good enough, have two options, dont read it and continue what they are doing or write their own to help the community :D… you just want me to tell you “i am wrong u are right your numbers are right” and that wont happen because my numbers, workfor me, and i have not tried the numbers u said, maybe when i test them Myself, in a nightmare raid, and it works, ill add an alternative gearing option :). anyways thx for the comments.

          • swtor69

            Well Said! Thank you guys for writing these guides, it’s invaluable to the swtor community! I’m all for increasing the number of competent raiders and and guilds :)

          • Qtomb3D Menggentari

            “I am writing a guide from experience, an experience almost nobody has in this game”. And this is based on fact? of just a feeling you have. So you’re an elitist and all the other players should be bowing for this almighty guide? I am not going to argue about the guide its self but this comment achieved one thing, I will never use this guide because of that comment, not even if I could beat an OP on Nightmare solo with it.

        • Cipy

          Of course these guides are “sub-optimal” if you want to min-max because it’s not the purpose of the guide. As I said there are plenty of threads that do nothing but argue on the best distribution (which I find really silly because such extreme optimizing is not needed, but hey to each his own), guides that in turn are sub-optimal if you want to improve your rotation or simply learn more about your class.

          What’s great about these guides here is the fact that they give out enough information to be able to understand your class (which is the most important thing) and perform at a high enough level. They are not meant for people already doing progression raiding and wanting to further improve, though I’m pretty sure everyone can pick up a thing or two or at least have something to try out, if you have an open mind that is.

          There are too many guides out there that hide behind math, written by people that lack the power and knowledge to understand that in most casses skill and experience is far better than blindly following a formula.

          And yes, a level 10 green sabre might do the trick, but you failed to see the point I was making…

          • Noroxus

            I agree about the math. Which is why I implore everyone to take it with a grain of salt, and try things for themselves. :) I’m very familiar with those who run with (mostly KBN’s) arguments and never try anything else. Which is unfortunate. It’s also unfortunate the Devs seem to listen to him…but that is another thing altogether.

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      Defense / shield is completely up to fight and operation, unfortunately this is a class guide not an operation guide, you cant write a guide “depending on an operation” it wouldnt make sense, that would be an operation guide, anyways if i were to take any content in consideration it would be NiM Sav, hm are a joke and not taken in consideration, and most of the hm mechanics are changed in nim so anything that you “think” is right for hm might change right away, so going with NiM Sav, defense helps you way more on the hardest milestone for tanking in there: Trasher and Tuchuk…. either way it is just an estimate to make it simple 16-24% is a LONG way to go, 18:47 is included in that range so that means your build is good according to my guide, that means the guide is good :), there are and there will be when nightmare release more in depth guides on the forums on how to gear for each specific fight in order to maximize the utility of your secondary stats, thats not our focus.

      as far as the full mit vs full endurance gearing option, ill just give you my opinion as guild / raid leader that i give my raiders, and obviously so far have worked, so its up to anyone to decide if they want to follow it or not, Deciding to go 1 Side or the other is often a mistake, the best way to tank / heal / dps is to find a “Balance”, the same way having 0 power or having 0 crit is not a way i recommend on anything, going full mit vs full endurance isnt either. My advice for tanks is, Go with 76 endurance enhancements (Average tanking ones).. Low WP high Endurance Mods + tank armoring, Augments as it is stated in the guide for reaching the % you want, usually going no Endurance Augment + that mod combination will give you enough balanced HP and stats to survive anything, because the problem with picking sides is, if u go full HP, then beside being harder to heal and more hp to heal while taking harder hits, you will be way more spikey, and if you go full mit 40k hp or whatever, u will have a more balanced mitigation that wont be as spikey as the other one, but just one bad luck RNG 2 non mitigated attacks on a fight like TWH 16 Nim, will burn through your 40k with couple of 20k hits, or NiM Kephess in TFB with 17k x 2 hits… so instead of going spikey or going hp risky, just find a balance, the endurance from average mods will get you to 46k no problem, and the mitigation from average mod will get you to like 2400 Rating +, and you will be good on both aspects of the Tanking game.

      about cheesing strats, again this is not an operation guide, and even if it was i would NEVER explain or write a guide on how to cheese something, cheesing makes the raid groups lazy, its a terrible way of leading a raid group, eventually if they fix it or change it in NiM mechanics you are pretty much done and screwed because you spent too much time learning how to cheese a fight that is already easily done without it, on a Nightmare fight for Progression, once, its understandable, for every week raiding is cheap and bad for a rad group, the 1 time your tank doesnt come and u replace with different class or they fix the fight, you are fucked up because you have no idea how to “not cheese” a fight, so fights have a mechanic to be done by all tanks and by no means ill encourage anyone here to be cheap and cheese something that can be done without it :).

      as far as relics, will be added to the alternate, i dont like it, and never will, math “can” be right, but there are way too many factors in a boss fights and most are not covered by math, so like u said is preferably to test it yourself and go with what you feel is better, never believe someone that does math and dont play the game, because majority of the “math” lovers are rarely any of the best players in the world from the best guilds and if math was perfectly true, they would :).

      for the shock thing, without counting Electrocute, the D.P last 15 Second, usually by the time you build 3 stacks and cast FL either shock or Wither will be coming off CD right away, so should be FL + Wth / Shock, this is 1 stack, the other one should be coming the next 1-2 GCd for second stack… now considering you used wither 1st GCD 1.5 + 7.5 Sec Cd + 15 = 10.5 Second if doing your rotation right with wither on first GCD you have 3 second window for Force lightning, not counting that shock at 3rd GCD 4.5 + 6 Sec CD (no electrocute) = 10.5 and if used at first is 1.5 + 4.5 + 1.5 = 7.5, without electrocute, so the chances that, you actually have a shock 2 second under CD on a DP with under 5 Second duration that requires you to hold GCD to wait for CD are minimal, not to say it will never happen if you doing things right (depending on mechanics which are not avoidable). your WORST combination is Shock 1.5 + Wth 1.5 + FL 3 + Shock (already off CD 6 Seconds) 1.5 (7.5 in total) + Random GCD 1.5 (9) + Random GCD 1.5 + Wth 1.5 (12) + Shock 1.5 (13.5), 3 stacks at this point your D.P has 5 seconds of Duration left… so unfortunately your “case” is invalid, not even in the worst situation your case should happen if the rotation is done right, so i agree it is something most ssins dont know, because it doesnt happen :S.

      • Noroxus

        Coming from a non sin tank, I’ll disregard most of what you say if I’m honest. Though I agree about the shock issue. It -generally- doesn’t happen…but as sin tanks we have to be aware…unlike PT and Jug tanks which are beyond lazy tanks lol.

        As for cheesing mechanics…what? Are you one of those people who would do something the hardest way possible because that’s the “real” way to do it? Smh…Enough on that subject.

        As for End Vs Mit, I fear you didn’t really read what I said about the stats…so I won’t bother to reply.

        We’ll have to disagree. Though, I insist you stop calling these guides…as they are far from full fledged. They’re outlines, pushing you into a decent direction. But lack enough information to make them really useful past the very beginning stages of a tank.

        • Carlos Eduardo Mata

          yeah, agree on the first and yeah i am one of those i dont let any raid group in my guild cheese anything, even the use of the pillar in HM DP last boss for tanks is something i dont encourage since in nightmare wont be useful probably, sometimes just use it to avoid wasting our time with random wipes with buffed thundering blast, but i never encourage cheesing :D.

  • Thomas Gennaro Jeffers

    Battle readiness should be exclusevely considered a defensive cooldown. It has zero aplication offensively as a shadow/assasin tank. And puting it down as a offensive cooldown will give people the wrong idea.

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      well, it kind of is, anything that further increases your dps is a dps CD, Stim boost doesnt grant dps boost yet it is an offensive CD, the Overcharge saber effect has 2 effect offensive and Defensive, defensive are important but offensive too.
      if you happen to be burning the boss at 2% left people dieing, you are off tanking, you need anything to do extra dmg, if you have it off cd, use it, it is more dmg, not reflecting its dps utility would cause people to think it doesnt increase dps which is false, if you wont use it as a defensive CD anytime soon, might as well use it to buff that extra 1-2k dmg, might be the difference between a wipe or not lolol.

      the tool tips on each CD has just the specific description for their use, people reading and playing should be smart enough to decide what they want to decide, the offensive part (which is obviously not recommended and honestly should not even be taken in consideration as u say, but people has to know what it does) or the defensive part, knowing every aspect of your char even the smallest thing is a very important part of improving your performance.

  • HungSolo

    (noob question) when making a Assassin tank do you go straight into the darkness tree, or fill out the first line Darkness + Deception + Madness

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      for lvling? i guess you go with whatever you prefer, for lvling the only good thing from tanking spec is the discharge AoE for easy questing, going up to madness to take Death field then all the way to darkness for even more AoE will make your ssin the easiest lvling class ever… if you are talking at lvl 55, it doesnt matter where u start from, but usually if you doing a “tank class” it is often recommended to start on the tanking tree to gain all the benefit and then fill with the rest.

  • KeyboardNinja

    Wow, a lot of assassin hating in here! :-) I count, what, three places in the guide where assassins are labeled as weaker tanks, utility tanks, too spiky, etc. Sigh…

    Assassins are spikier than the other tanks, this is absolutely true, but they are so much less spiky than they used to be that it isn’t even a contest. Powertechs remain the smoothest tanks by a fair margin, but assassins and juggernauts are so close on nearly every fight that it isn’t even fair to keep bringing up the point. Honestly, assassins are only spiky now if they let DP drop (which, btw, lasts 12 seconds, not 15). If an assassin drops DP outside of a special mechanic (eg Rising Slash), they’re a bad assassin. This definitely makes them hard to play well, as you assert.

    “Assassins are off tanks”. Excuse me? I main tanked Nightmare Kephess (the undying) at gear level. I’ve main tanked every fight in the game (to the extent that fights have a “main” tank) and, frankly, my healers have been extremely happy with that arrangement. The only fight that I ever, ever gave preference to another tank on the basis of class was NiM Op IX in the second phase. Sure, spikiness happened on all of these fights, and it was sometimes very hard to cope with that, but the fact that I was requiring almost 500 HPS less than my vanguard cotank on NiM DG (and similarly across other fights) was very, very noticeable and something we exploited the heck out of during progression.

    I’ve experienced assassin tanking from the other side, as a healer, and I do agree that sometimes things are dicy. However, since 2.5, I haven’t really seen any dicy moments that weren’t attributable to bad play (lost DP stacks; bad Dark Ward usage, etc).

    In any case…

    Regarding the guide itself, the gearing advice is very weird. Again, I recommend using the stat budgets I calculated on the forums. As a card carrying math lover, Carl, I would like to point out that I’ve done all the content in the game and enjoyed it very much. I don’t just sit around and spin theories. :-) In any case, itemizing poorly won’t kill anyone. It’s not bis, of course, but you’ll live.

    Endurance stacking is a tricky question. Really, it depends on your healers. If your healers need more reaction time, either due to being slow healers in general or because of their class (eg double Sorc), then more endurance is fair. However, if you have enough HP to avoid getting spiked within 5 or so seconds (and 43k is more than enough for any 8 man boss, including Raptus), then stacking more is just redundant and you should push for better mitigation. Incidentally, to the player who saw a 6.7k total difference in damage taken, try your experiment again. RNG matters. I can tell you right now that, on average, the difference between full mitigation and full endurance is a lot more than that. Still, if you want to go endurance heavy (specifically, if your healers want this), then use B mods. Don’t use high Endurance enhancements (they sacrifice a lot of stat budget for very little gain) or endurance augments. My healers like the efficiency and actually don’t want a higher health pool, so I go full mitigation.

    As for cool downs, if you score out the assassin defensive CDs and account for multiple medpacks per fight, assassins come out at the very least even, and arguably ahead of Juggs (the “cooldown” tanks). Invincible is strictly worse than Overcharge, since the mitigation it provides is no better and it lacks the healing component (also, longer CD). Saber Ward is better than Deflection for sure, but not that much better on average, and it has a longer timer. Shroud is more widely applicable than saber Reflect by a wide margin, and it has a much much shorter cooldown. Oh, and assassins get more out of the armor adrenal than Juggs do. All in all, they have an equal or better suite of cool downs.

    Oh, regarding rotation, give Shock higher priority than Wither and your opener will no longer depend on RNG. Just hit Pull > Shock > Wither > Discharge > Thrash and Shock will naturally come off cool down, so you don’t have to spam a low threat attack waiting for a proc. This makes your DP easier to maintain, too, since getting Shock on cool down before Wither gets you your stacks more quickly. On that same note, it isn’t worth fishing for Energize for the second Recklessness charge. I mean, it would be if you wanted max DPS, but it’s an opener and you need max (and reliable) threat. Just use Wither right after Force Lightning. It will be off CD, and it does a boat ton of threat when it crits (more than Shock, as a point of fact).

    Anyway, that’s about it. The only thing I want to add is that Force Cloak is often extremely useful as a “get four stacks of DP” button at fight transitions. Brontes and Calphayus are both excellent examples of this.

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      everything said there is true :), the fact that you say it is better than before doesnt mean it is good, and yeah the 12 – 15 second duration thing i just noticed earlier.

      and yeah regardless of you look at it, they are often way better off tank than main tanks, PT are far ahead as u say, and juggernaut has 1 clear advantage that puts assassin on the third spot called “Armor Reduction” :), considering the new Pyro merc thing, not having tracer missile jug became now even more useful, Shatter shot can be really annoying to use as well as destroy sniper rotation and not useful on multiple targets.

      since assassin changes in 2.5 there has not been any real content so we dont know yet how good changes are, people have to stop thinking HM is content, hm is a joke, done by anyone, require a minimum of skill requirement and gear, you should by no means have any trouble with it :), but i agree it improved.

      as far as the other comment on progress, i want to note this here i am not trying to sound insulting or disrespectful by any means since you have been doing good comments on most guides and are a really nice guy different from quite a few people here in the forums that uses other people information like yours to hide behind no Arguments. But yeah at this point anyone have cleared everything, but the thing is and again “not trying to sound disrespectful” your math is there, is good is theory, i have no way to know if it is right or wrong since i have not taken the time to try and understand the Coding formula behind it, like some guildie said the other day, u might have been fooling everyone around with Wrong numbers and who would know? lolol (its a joke), so instead of following theoretical Math i prefer the practice and i have never, ever, used any of your theorycrafting for tank or dps, and i am on every dps leaderboard ive wanted to be, on every fight usually above your numbers (i understand your main is a tank, but just for comparison in regards on stuff like Pyro merc guide), i can grab any class i want as long as it is geared enough and rank it in torparse and top 5 leaderboard dummy (most of the time), because ive done it before ive been in every single class leaderboard, and not following those numbers but following my experience and my guildies tips :), the problem is getting the gear of course thats why i cant have all my alts there now :( lol but thats a different topic… and these tank numbers are used in my guild not only because i recommend them, but also because my other raiders often uses them and rarely uses your numbers.
      so basically i know and i didnt want to sound insulting when i said “math usesr” dont clear content, but dont clear it as fast as we do, an under my perspective a guild that follows your “perfect math” because i believe your whole guild should use your math numbers of course, should easily be the best, considering as you say your numbers are perfect there is no reason for a guild that follows that to not be on top or at least on leaderboards as far as dps ( i know there are way too many other factors, but just like math “in the game”, its a true statement that is relative in practice, but would help back up the information). so again let me repeat this coming totally respectful, as i believe your math is probably right and you work hard on that and i would “never” step into your guides to say what i am saying now or critic it :), i would rather use the information of the successful experience instead the math of the no success.
      To me and to my guild, anyone that is not in the top 5 probably guilds either 8 or 16 man, is just another person that might have really good information and skills, but between random person or a member of SG or Suckafish i would listen to SG and Suckafish before anyone else because they back up their information with success,

      then again it was all in the most respectful way and dont want to start a fight or argument, but i have to defend our information with my point :) as you seem a really nice guy and a very smart player :), but like i said the target to beat are the guilds up top, right now we are one of those, and people aim to beat us, and we are giving out here OUR Information and our experience, this is not math, this is not random information, this is exactly the information HATRED guild follows and the one used to help us be Ranked 1st last nightmare SaV content, so people is free to choose if they want to go with math which is a fair option and smart maybe, or the experience of success, we really dont understand how someone would choose random information instead of top guilds information but thats really up to personal choice :), if our information is wrong, then we are beating progress the hard way then :P because this is what we do and like i said if this guide was made by Pizzadahutt or everdyimsmgling however it is spelled and their guild members and this same topic happened, ME, invinc, Carlos would 100% sure choose the guilds guide instead of math, because the guild information is something that has proven it worked, if they did it, so can i, while math is just numbers and no performance to back it up.

      for the CD thing i did have a bad time deciding ratings for that one honestly, but i prefer jugs, as my brother plays jug and it has main tanked my raids since day 1, ive always prefered jugs over anything, all your arguments there are valid and make sense, but i had to choose between one or other in a tight spot, and i had to choose Jug because i prefer jugs and believe they have a small advantage towards ssin in my personal opinion.

      for itemization, we all use medium endurance (76) enhance… high endurance Mod, so no high mitigation or pure endurance here, we like to balance thing out.

      as far as opener, yeah that make sense too, but honestly i rarely ever have threat problem with ssin, i mean that extra low threat GCD there wont make a difference, and since i am used to tank with a jug pair, using the wither right away, even if it sounds silly for 1 GCD, the 5% dmg reduction is useful considering jug doesnt apply it, so i give up that GCD fo that debuff, the DP to keep up yeah it does make sense actually but is doable either way, if it is a fight where i am not moving much i will be able to keep it up regardless of that, considering Electrocute will disorder the rotation, and if it has a tank swap / transition, i would just let it drop and like you said, force cloak for 4 stacks and start from scratch with shock + wither + GCD + GCD + shock.

      again thanks for all your feedback on all the guides its been really helpful to fix some mistakes from copy pasting and small things that we missed while writing, dont take the math thing the wrong way :) is just my opinion and our opinion in our guild :D, your guides are great and keep them going since i know people love them, that way they have different options to decide if they prefer that guide, this guide or other guide :), after all regardless of the “mathematically perfect” numbers, it ends up being all relative, as long as you are using what you should be using, you wont notice a difference from one perspective or the other i am pretty sure there are plenty of players from the top guilds that uses your information, as well as there are plenty of players from top guilds like us that dont and work too so it is all up to preference :), after all playing is 80% skills 20% stats :P (Fake numbers Warning!!) lololol. Have fun :)

      • Medievalhorde

        There are only two sin tank mains in hatred between Aysua and myself. I’ve talked to Carl about my concerns, but for the most part this IS the general consensus when talking about sin tanks from hatreds perspective. I also argue that nobody should put baby into a corner, but the fact of the matter is that they do better as an “offtank” than either a PT or a Jugg and they excel there. Sins are good for many things, but I;d argue face tanking isn’t one of them compared to the other two. It’s not that you can’t do it, but it’s sub-optimal to have them “main tank”.

        I quote main tank because besides Raptus, this level of content really doesn’t have a main and off tank to it any of the fights and Raptus is only true if you have a PT as they can just stand stand there and hydraulic override .Grob maybe, but he hits like a little girl and it basically doesn’t matter who tanks him.

        • Noroxus

          Brontes, Sin is clearly the tank of Choice. That can’t be argued.

          I have to disagree about Sins feeling worse than PTs or Jugs…I would say those sins have a problem. Honestly all three tanks can do things the others can’t. And while sins may be slightly spikier, a good one knows how to negate that.

          Another factor is, a Sin tank is supposed to be the finesse tank, the “cheese mechanics” tank. I understand your guild will not cheese mechanics…so that could be your problem. But hey, to each their own. Some guilds really like sorc healers. Some like Sin tanks.

          • Medievalhorde

            If you’re talking about shit like getting Dash’ out of bound of the storm and hitting him, then yea that shits as lame as a cripple with leprosy.

            If you’re talking about using force shroud to negate kel’s force leach, or force cloaking out of Withering Horror to avoid adds then of course we use it to our full advantage.

            If you are referring the kephess clones in bronte’s fight as that’s literally the only phase where you’re really tanking her then no, We usually push her right after the second clone and we simply have my PT partner hydrolic override to the first and he can easily jump to the second while I stay on the boss. Which of those is the offtank and which one is the main? I’d argue the one on the boss, but then again the one turning kephess’ does a bit more work. It’s all opinionated at this point. As Carl said, this crap isn’t hard enough to really show dominance or difference between tanks. TfB and SV nightmare shows sins in a rather favorable light, but we won’t know until Nightmare of the current levels come out how they feel.

            On an unrelated note, I can’t help but feel you don’t really understand that everyone who raids in hatred knows their stuff. It’s not an if and or but on that account. If someone doesn’t understand their class completely, they wouldn’t be here for very long.

            Personally I love the sin tanks, but I’m not under an illusion about what I’m dealing with. There is a reason there have been so many world firsts and top guilds with sin tanks in them. They are good tanks, but being finesse tanks they shouldn’t be the ones taking it to the face. Leave that to a PT or a juggy and let your cooldowns and slyness be a deciding factor, not this bravado that sins are the best front runners. Can you main tank with them? Hell yea, but that’s not optimal, it’s not as efficient. Ten out of ten times I’d let my partner tank it while I went ham on the boss, put down a circle for our healers, stealth out to a rez, gather up adds, and take the boss off of him with a cooldown to give a breather to the healers and him if allowed.

            On another unrelated note. How are people doing in progeny?

            • guest

              You guys take the game too seriously, and your veiled hostility towards people with differing views is such bullshit. Anyone can tank any boss with any class if they can handle it, whether it’s optimal or not, as that is the way the designers made the game, so everyone can enjoy a bit of what they want. Also, your being on top of the leaderboards doesn’t mean shit besides you are way overattached to meaningless titles and clapping yourself on the back because you can smash a number key on a keyboard. Gratz. God forbid you do something to contribute to society.

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                no one here said any class is not useful, it just happens often to the players of the classes that feel hurt when you say the true about them, no one said dont use ssin or dont use as this, the guide just explain the maximum utility of it, i am one of those that agree everything is playable at high lvls, ive played op dps before it was FoTM outperfoming everyone i wanted on concealment, and i still play it, ive used ssin tanks, jug dps, PT dps after nerf, everything is useful on a skilled player, but you cant lie to everyone in a guide saying “everything is equally” good class for everything which is not true.

              • guest

                I didnt say you said any class is not useful, i was referring to your response. Also, half of everything you type of just bragging about shit youve done. Noone cares, or we wouldve asked. Thanks for changing the subject to be about you though. I dont care about how cool you are. Tell it to the mom you still live with. I just mean, even with your number crunching, your way isn’t the right way for anyone, and letting other people have their opinions isn’t a bad thing. I didnt say anything about lying to be people aout them being equal. I said that anyone can use any tanking class for any fight because thats the way the game designers made it.

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                unfortunately the people did ask for reference after the few guides, so we had to add them, as its not the same a guide written by me or any guild leader for any good guild, as a guilde written by Mr. McRandomScrub so it is important, and is also important when people judge or think they are right when they are not, because i have information to back up the stuff that are not mistaken.
                everytime a good player post here with their char names is completely different from when someone post being a random player. for example posts from KBN about stats, smugling on jug guide, Marisi on merc guide, often giving their ideas which have back up and we discuss it, completely different from people coming here with a random account saying “this is wrong because i read it somewhere else” so theres where i add My achievements vs whoever else wrote the other and people is up to decide.
                there has been many changes made to the guides from people comments and fixes, unfortunately not all the comment people make here are right, therefor i cant grab all comments and say “thanks ill add that” because its not people come here to ask / give their opinion, and nota ll their opinion are right, according to me so thats why i tell them it is not, and not put it in my guide, they are free to play what they want, people that is supossed to be so good wouldnt be reading and complaining about a guide they dont need. thanks for your comment anyways with the 10 yr old argument.

                FYI: i am 21 and still live with my mom, because in the country i live people dont stop living with their parents are 16 :) lol so your childish argument is invalid.

                people say their opinion, and ask them in comment which is my work as the one who wrote the guide to tell them if its right or wrong, if people cant accept when i tell them it is wrong then they should not come post something here, because when they are right we accept it of course and have changed multiple stuff :).

            • KeyboardNinja

              Everyone keeps saying that assassins main tanking is “not as efficient” or “not optimal”. My question is really this: under what metric are you claiming it is less efficient or less optimal? I can and have shot down every argument there aside from personal preference. Assassins take less damage overall than even powertechs when played correctly, so there’s your efficiency point. They are almost exactly as spiky as juggernauts, so there’s a point about optimality. Yes, they don’t bring the armor debuff, which is a loss, but if your snipers don’t know how to put shatter shot into rotation without disruption (hint: all of the specs have a nice GCD conveniently every 35-40 seconds where it fits as filler), then I’m not sure what to say. I think it is entirely fair to say that you *prefer* juggernaut and powertech tanks, but you cannot with any validity claim that they are objectively weaker as “main” tanks.

              Regarding information and general trustworthiness of sources. Carl in particular seems to be at great pains to justify everything in these guides on the virtue of the fact that Hatred got world firsts and is a very high tier guild. This is also the standard argument used to claim that math and numbers are a waste of time that would be better spent practicing or something. This is a highly specious argument. If you clear a boss, does it mean you did everything perfectly? Look at this another way: is your tank’s mitigation the primary determinant of whether or not you clear a boss? Of course not. Thus, you can still clear a boss very competitively with suboptimal stats. The converse of this holds as well. Just because you cleared the boss doesn’t mean that your tanks were perfectly itemized.

              This holds across essentially all topics. For example, if you watch Hatred’s first Styrak NiM kill, there are half a dozen points where Carl himself messes up his rotation quite significantly, usually by accidentally putting Ambush right after SoS > FT rather than after the double Snipe block. They still cleared the boss though, and world third at that. Does this mean that every sniper should start hard casting Ambush rather than proc’ing the 1.5 second cast? Of course not! What it means is that a kill is not determined by 100% perfection in all areas of class and game. Carl is a phenomenally good player, and it is equally clear from that video that he more than fulfilled his role in clearing that boss. Everyone in the group did.

              Hatred clears bosses quickly because they are coordinated, efficient, skilled, and geared. They do not clear bosses because everything they believe in terms of rotation or gear is 100% correct. This is why it is very dangerous to argue from anecdote and authority about what is optimal in this game, because there are so many factors which play into whether or not a raid group is successful. It is for this reason that I absolutely don’t just take everything said by successful raiders as gospel, unless they can provide some justification for it beyond “well, I clear bosses”.

              Which is to say that if you can objectively justify why assassins are weaker tanks and less suited for “face tanking the boss”, then do so. Otherwise, you’re just spreading unfounded prejudice against a class on the basis of your personal preferences.

              Coming back to the point on numbers, of course I use my own math, and it does confer an advantage. I have combat logs which prove this. But this game isn’t just about numbers and statistics, as everyone has been saying. Execution beats optimal itemization every day of the week. Which is to say that you can’t discredit theorycrafting just because the guilds with heavy theorycrafters didn’t win all the world firsts.

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                every class is useful for everything, but unfortunately ssin are well more suited as off tanks, i dont know why it hurts you, medieval says so, all fights require tank swap so tehre is no such thing as off tank full time, but assassin are WAY better tanks when tehy are behind a boss than jug, why? because jug dont generate rage and suck beside armor reduction while assassin use most if his stuff to improve the performance, while a jug gains much more utility while main tanking such as PT and often can find more tools to become useful as main tank vs offtank, while ssin even if spikes are less, they are still more spikey and receive more dmg, so even if they cappable of everything, i would rather have a ssin taking 40% of the time the boss using his utility and CDs, while other two take 60% of the time the boss since when they are not tanking the boss they are very limited.

                you are wrong, clearing nightmare content in competition with other guilds quick, requires time skill coordination and everything u say, but it does in fact require perfect rotations and gearing, just by the fact that when we clear an operation in 1 week we have no gear, while people clear it in 5-6 with multiple pieces of gear to help them buff their numbers, so not being geared enough + bad itemized would mean it is impossible, as far as the video fight i agree not everything is done perfect, also a boss fight is completely different from dummy and has many factors, i commit way more mistakes with sniper than operative lol, but yeah, often a “mistake” on a rotation might not be it on a boss fight as it is on a dummy, but yeah i understand the point.

                as far as the rest yeah it is actually a way to justify it, because we have not only been the best guild in our server always with this guide, but were 2nd title tfb, and then 1st sav, using this information so it works, we are not way more skilled than the rest of the competition, neither we spend 100 more times than the other top guilds,we all know thats not true, so arguing our information is wrong would also say we wouldnt be able to achieve what we achieve vs equally skilled people with the right information.

                let me put another example to see if my english let me put a good example lol >_>:. you want to play basketball, there is a genious with numbers in the Bobcats staff (math), and there is Miami heat staff (champions last year), now if u wanted to choose between the genius or the champion who you choose? i would choose miami to teach me, maybe the bobcats staff has everything right in theory and are geniuses, but their numbers have not made bobcats any good… so underestimating experience with numbers is a mistake, none has the right answer, but is up to everyone to choose who to train with right? :).

                another example on math, assassin tanks, since 2.0 there has been millions of QQ post for ssins, probably including you, telling bioware how spikey and bad they were in comparison for some bosses vs other tanks specially in 16 man, bioware answer is “we have the math, we have the sims, assassins should not have this problem, in fact they should be the best tanks”, but that was not the case, 5 patches later they listen and everyone happy, they listened to experience not their “perfect math”, changes in theory for them might not be better in fact they might be simulating stuff and saying “assassins are worst now” but in practice we all know they are way more stable. so hiding behind math is just what bioware does, instead of listening to the people that does the stuff, they hide behind their numbers which apparently if you judge by the forums, they are usually wrong lolol.

                and justifying something with experience is way more important than justifying with nothing, your math might be right, but there has not been any developer that has told me it is, bioware coding is a mess, they fuck up everything like relics, what makes me think or be sure that if bioware cant even control their own code, you reading through it are right and your math is right, and your simulations?, thats my point, it might be right and perfect, but it might not be, until bioware release official formulas and simulators “Bioware class simulator with everything perfect” and we run it in that sim, for me there is no official proof of anything neither yours or mine :S.

                so bottom line, never said your info is wrong, just saying i would rather go with our experience that happen to work very well and is a great way to justify just by the fact that i get like 20 in game mails weekly asking me for help on multiple stuff (before this guides) because people often look up to the good guilds to learn on their own servers, the people that want to follow what we do use this, the one that want to follow you use yours, there doesnt have to be an argument, the problem is when people BELIEVE one side and not the other, and come to my guide saying its wrong, without back up, because i dont go to your guide and post “key KBN, why dont u show me how your guild perform with those numbers” nah right? (this is not for u, is for the rest of the comments) your guide is YOUR guide, mine is MY guide, different information to help people :) mine works, and has proofs, yours work because math is supossed to be right and ofcourse a lot of people uses it and it does work… so I dont believe your information is correct, i dont believe my information is correct, i dont believe any information is 100% correct, there are mistakes everywhere, and nothing is perfect, and at the end regardless of which one is closer to be correct than the other, this game has a lot of room to play with your stats so being correct is not having 1233 rating, being correct is having 1000-1300 rating because the difference is probably really small and not noticeable :D.

                again thx for the help on the small mistakes on rotaitons and stuff, like u can see writing so many guides is a lot of work so there were more typo and copy paste mistakes or random idiotic mistakes than expected lol :S. i prefer having this argument WITH YOU, you backing up your information vs my information, because u know your stuff and you are smart player, than having to have this argument with 3 other “random” people that have no argument and instead say “this is wrong because i read something different on other forums” lol so you can understand why that kind of stuff piss me off :).

              • KeyboardNinja

                :-)

                I think we’ve probably both presented our sides on the information validity point, so I’ll leave it alone. The only thing I will point out though is with the numbers, it is possible to walk through my formulae and verify that they actually match up with in game phenomena and mathematical laws. In fact, if you’re interested, I would be happy to walk you through the fundamentals of how the tanking stats are derived (since these are far more empirically justified than DPS theorycrafting). I agree that if I just spouted numbers with no provenance, then no one should believe me. I give my formulae though, and I explain how they are derived. If someone chooses not to believe the numbers, then that is their right, but they should do it not because the numbers are unsupported by proof and evidence, but because they themselves are choosing not to believe or understand that proof.

                In any case, no judgment here. I’ve done plenty of top-tier content at level. I know how much strain it puts on each individual member of the raid and what kind of performance is required to meet that level. That doesn’t mean that everyone is required to be perfect down to the millisecond or the single-digit stat rating to succeed, but it does require a level of play which is simply unheard of in 99% of the game’s population. And, as you say, that does mean something. All things being equal, information from Hatred is certainly much more likely to be accurate and optimal than information from Joe Random-Noob on the forums. :-)

                Finally, circling back to the off tanking point… Assassins do make better off tanks in terms of resources than juggernauts, but this is primarily a function of how awful juggernauts are when they aren’t constantly taking damage. Assassins have much more significant benefits from incoming damage than you give them credit for, probably because the skill tree tool tips are still bugged. On an average fight, almost 40% of an assassin’s force regeneration comes from shielding and defending. That’s more than powertechs by a wide margin, even counting the reduced cool down on Heat Blast and Rocket Punch. It would be more than Juggs too if it weren’t for the Revenge proc. Also, remember that the cooldown on Shroud is reduced by shielding or defending, such that the effective cool down is really between 30 and 40 seconds when main tanking. These benefits are all lost when off tanking. In general, I lose about 300-400 DPS when off tanking as opposed to main tanking, and I can get just shy of half the uptime from Shroud.

                Also, correcting again: assassins take *less* damage than the other tanks, not more. I can show you both math and numerous combat logs which substantiate this point. When we were progressing on NiM DG, I was taking just over 1.3k DPS when accounting for my self-heal, which is almost 400 DPS less than the best logs I’ve seen from Juggs and PTs at gear level on that fight. As for spikiness, they are certainly spikier than powertechs (by about 4%), but they are not noticeably spikier than Juggs. Again, math, logs and experience bear this out. If you have a spiky sin tank post-2.5, they are doing something wrong. In any case, there just isn’t enough of a disparity here to justify relegating them to off tanking solely on the basis of damage profile.

                Strictly speaking, you coming out and proclaiming that assassins are only good as off tanks doesn’t hurt me personally in any way. My guild isn’t going to replace me, and my reputation is sufficient that I’m fairly sure I could get a good group even if they did (on one server or another). I just think that this sort of misinformation hurts the community. There are people out there who want to play assassin tanks who will be shut out of operations as a result of prejudice against the class. This has been a problem all along for assassin tanks, and I really don’t like it. A class should be judged on its objective merits, not its reputation. Similarly, a player should be judged on their merits, not on the prejudice surrounding their class. If my grandstanding and vociferous objections to the “off tanking” prejudice help just one up-and-coming assassin tank find a good group, it was entirely worthwhile.

                Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to follow through the argument! As much as I may disagree with many of the things you have written in these guides, I still think they are (on the whole) very good, and I have the utmost respect for you as a player and your guild as a solid and highly competitive group.

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                agree, anyways i wouldnt mind a run through the madth, not saying ill believe it considering, just like i dont expect bioware to do perfect formulas since they always mistake, could happen to us too lol… anwyays yeah would be nice, and thx, ill answer the assassin thing being offtank in the other comment above so read it :)

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                btw considering how much controversy the gearing option stuff have brought, will add the alternative gearing option from theorycrafting math from your forum post, that way people will be free to choose and we can stop arguing about it :P, hope its fine, you offered us to use your numbers so i believe that wont be a problem at all :).

              • Zaio

                The main problem is that you seem extremly polar in your opinions, I do agree that assasins are an excelent off-tank, but they are WAAY more than capable or being a damn great main tank, even if they have a higher skill cap.
                While every tank has advantages over the other one, they are pretty well balanced IMO and all of them are able of performing well as either main tank or off tank.
                Your guide basically is saying to the inexperienced user (which should be a lot of people consulting guides) “assasins tanks suck so send them to off tank where they can be doing other pretty stuff like placing healing circles and applying debuffs”.
                I suggest you change the phrasing on your guide (which otherwise seems like a pretty good guide, so props on that) to sound a little bit less extremist, and put more emphasis that while shadow tanks have a lot of utility when off-tanking, they are more than capable of fulfilling the main tank role as well.

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                i agree actually this is a really nice post, i guess it does make it look far worst than expected, and in reality doesnt express what i really believe it should express, like i said in other comments, unfortunately i need a translator/editor because i dont speak english, and most of the stuff i write in english at 40% understandable 60% take a guess, because i often dont find the words i am expecting, so a lot of this guids have some of those misconceptions, just like where it said assassins has the worst mitigation, had to be worst dmg reduction. so often when i write so many pages of this for over 30+ specs, a lot of mistakes happen specially when the person that translate and fix it has to take an interpretation of what i wrote which is / might not have been too clear, so we will edit that to make it sound less extreme as it is not what we were trying to reflect, my editor often didnt judge what i typed and had to take an interpretation of what is by far well written English, so there is a high possibility of this kind of mix ups that we will fix soon enough to reflect better what we were trying to say and what people believe :).

                thanks for the feedback btw i couldnt get why people were so upset about it until you made me read about it, same with the guy that posted the mitigation thing lol. remember it is a work in progress thanks to all the tips and feedback from the people so expect even small and few changes on every guide as we keep getting more comments.

              • Zaio

                Yeah english isn’t my main language as well so i totally understand you :)
                Anyways thanks for the effort going into these guides and I’m eager to read more of the incoming dps guides where i could use some help :p

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                yeah trying to express what i am trying to say perfectly is harder than it seems, there has been quite few mistakes like that but fixing it as people point them out.

              • wontread

                Wow. You would choose Miami to teach you? That is the exact wrong answer. When you have Lebron James your front office only needs to be competent to build a championship team. Here is Miami’s advice for building a championship … sign Lebron James and surround him with the most competent players you can afford. That is just not useful advice for anyone. The front office that teaches you how to maximize the talent you have is more useful. Most raiding teams do not have access to the best players at every position. Why is that the case? Because there are actually only a few players on the server that actually are the best at their position. There are plenty of competent players and soon to be competent players that are new to the game and those players need to find out how to get the most from their abilities. The team dynamic determines success or failure and small edges from the theory crafting and math can make the difference for guilds that are not doing world 1st clears. You know … almost everyone else on the server.

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                so under your perspective, miami didnt help lebron at all, thats why him by himself couldnt win a title on cleveland, under your perspective miami only has lebron james, because lakers didnt have gasol howard briant and nash… oklahoma had durant westbrook harden at their time… San antonio duncan parker manu… miami just go LEBRON CARRY US, and he wins the game vs all these teams, that is wrong, the coach of miami the whole staff have done excelent job, anyways i used miami as a whole just not say Lebron himself because people would start QQing about everything “u calling the guide is as good as lebron” and all that bullshit, so i went with a team comparison, would u rather practice with miami, lebron and the rest, learn from experience of the championship, or go practice with bobcast loser team just because 1 person in the staff seems to be a genius in theory that other people dont know… like i said is up to preference i would prefer going the way that won the championship, i would also try to listen advice from the genius guy that knows w/e valuable information he knows,

                i agree on the last statement anyways, maybe i was a bit too extremist on first thought and should just have agreed to add as we did the theorycrafting option for people that prefer that, and here is why, first its not my information neither i was allowed to use it until later, also i have not had practice with those numbers or really followed them to notice how they would improve me or hinder me, since my numbers never had a flaw for me, so if i use these numbers as reference that “i” somehow dont trust 100% from practice, and imagine tomorrow developer of class designing decide to for whatever reason of life post a forum thread saying “all the information and formula from that theorycrafting is wrong because of X, X, X” not only it would destroy that post and its reputation, it would also destroy my guide, because i assumed by random facts that i didnt trust, that someone i dont know, dont know if he knows what hes doing, or in a more ignorant way dont understand or want to understand what he is doing with the numbers, has the perfect information just for peer pressure… because all the people that would have forced me to post that info would be the first ones that come here complaining i was wrong.

                so in order to avoid that situation, i never said my numbers were ideal and perfect, never i said his theorycrafting is wrong, i just gave a gearing option trusted by my/our experience and our numbers and people is free to follow them or not, then added the theorycrafting thing stating that it is a secondary option for people that likes that and we have absolutely any influence in that post, if the case i stated above happens, i just delete that part and no one can blame us :).

                the problem with people in the internet is the following, first everyone know they know everything, everything is an expert on what they dose based usually really poor experience and skills, note this in swtor, as well as pokemon reddit, gaming reddit, gaming forums, or anyone that say in forums “swtor devs are idiots i would be doing a much better work” yet this genius of development is unemployed judging the people that is developing the game his playing.

                There will always be a hater, a lover a troll and the geniuses, you cant avoid that, half the people will love it, half the people will hate it, The theory of evolution is a proven theory renown worldwide, yet there are many people that wont believe or trust it, now suddenly people expect this to be loved by everyone and have all the right answers, and it wont, and even if it had it, there will still be a part of the population that wont agree with it.

                people have to stop being so hypocrites coming judge someones work saying “this shit sucks it is wrong because i say so” then when you give them an argument thats different from what they say they start “this is what i dont like, people come give their ideas and you dont listen to them and just ignore our ideas!” because i somehow have to accept an idiot saying something is wrong without any kind of argument and also give him the reason otherwise everyone start complaining, then again its the internet, we all knew this was going to happen.

                anyways bottom line, people in this guide should really start noticing that is specific type of class population that has this problem, the whole ssin community reading this make up and invent so many things that are not written, saying being the better off tank = the worst tank, how they try so hard to prove themselves, myself and the rest that they are the best class by far, same with some over the merc heals, its like they have the necessity to have community approval that they are the best.

                Jug discussion in the comments: almost all between 2 talent points, great argument.

                Pt discussion: Mostly between 2 talents two, the other half between endurance Vs Threat, also somehoe great arguments.

                Ssin discussion: 2 – 3 people post about a different opener, great arguments, 5 are “this is wrong because i say so, wont back it up because i am right and you are wrong”… the rest are either Hating or Complaining every single made up detail on the assassin description because it should say it is the best class by far or we hate the class.

                read thru all the comments in all 3 tank classes, and judge yourself the difference between classes communities. the classes that are always overlooked as the worst, more complex just not the preferred class, or threaten by the community opinion, often need to find not their own opinion, but everyone elses opinion on how they are the best and if you dont say that they are, you are wrong an idiot and a hater, in this case has been merc heals (just a few, not really that bad) and ssin tanks by far.

      • Cipy

        I’m pretty sure KBN’s formula perfectly shows that the ideal numebers are 79% skill and 21% stats, just joking of course :)

        My main problem with math is that you tunnel vision and you tunnel vision on a thing that has quite a low importance in the overall aspect of a raid. Improving your stats will only get you so far, it has high diminishing returns if you will, skill on the other hand and the overall knowledge of the class you’re playing is usually what separates the top guilds/players from the rest. And I don’t mean mastering your class on the training dummy, that’s hardly relevant. The difference between a 3.5k dps and 3.2k dps on a boss will never be due to extreme optimizing, it’s pure skill and the same goes for tanks and healers.
        And as much as one prides himself in his math being accurate, it isn’t, because it can’t be. You can’t integrate in your model the variables that really matter, the variables that usually result in a wipe or a clear and those variables are the players. And I’m not talking here about being good or bad at the game, it’s about style of play, rotation preference, CD use, reactions to RNGs, raid structure and so on. Of course math lovers have these as constants because there’s an optimal rotation and an optimal way to do things, but that doesn’t hold true in practice. Every player at this level has a certain style due to his playing preferences (some are more energy conservator, some like to risk it hoping for a proc) and some will adapt to that style when it comes to gearing and they will get better results than following the math path because gearing to their style of play will benefit them more.
        Math can’t take into account style of play and skill, the 2 most impoertant things that define a player, and thus it isn’t completely accurate.

  • Ellendra

    I’d just like to point out that taunting from more than 4 meters away builds 30% additional threat.

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      yup this is true

  • funkiestj

    I’m surprised there is no mention of force shroud’s “100%” immunity really only being 95% immunity

    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=704814&highlight=force+shroud

    and
    http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6467203#post6467203

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      you posted something from patch 1.4 we are on patch 2.5, also the second post just note how they changed dmg type of a nightmare ability, huge grenade is tech in hm and melee in nightmare as well as terminate, nothing say it is 95% immunity, but if u find another source or anyone else can back this up too, i have no information of that :).

      • Panos

        http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6467203#post6467203

        “So while Force Shroud is active, there is always at least a 5% chance that you could be hit by any tech or Force attack.”

        • Carlos Eduardo Mata

          aaah i see it now, that can not be managed by us unfortunately, it is stated there than most NPC have 5% base accuracy, so it has a 5% chance to miss, IMO it shouldnt be like that, as the tooltip says it has 100% to resist, thats 100% regardless of what happens, but you know how bioware likes to do stuff… anyways 5% is really small and unlikely to happen in any fight (bad luck is bad luck) and should not be taken in consideration to when use or not to use the ability, because that means also 50% deflection is in fact 45% same with saber ward, since 5% base accuracy affects everything.

          • Ancaglon

            The 5% minimum chance affects Force Shroud/Resilience and Saber REFLECT, but it doesn’t affect the other abilities because they already have more than 5% minimum.

            Deflection and Saber WARD increase defence chance by 50%, but neither case would it take it to over 95%, so they are not affected.

      • KeyboardNinja

        I have plenty of logs of Shroud failing, unfortunately, and it is well documented on the forums. Saber Reflect can also fail in the same way, but because of the damage types it is used on (and the longer cool down) it is less noticeable.

  • Panos

    Pretty nice guides, especially when you consider they’re coming from two people. I don’t know if anyone has asked something similar but could you post a section with links of other guides, suggestion threasd etc you might have followed/co-write/inspired from etc, unless of course something like that would go against TOS (of official forum) or wouldn’t give a benefit to a guide etc

    • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

      Ya we can link to other guides that might be worth reading. This will be added once all of the guides are done as our priority is to finish up the guides for remaining dps classes atm :)

  • Deskara

    Christ, have you even played an assassin tank?

    The guide seems to be written by someone who either tried a sin tank as an “offspec” and got demolished due to lack of gear / knowledge or someone who just does not like it at all.

    The starting rotation is not the optimal one as well. It should be :

    Stealth -> Pull+speed -> shock -> wither -> discharge -> thrash -> (reckles+taunt) -> shock -> force lightning

    that provides the optimal threat to start and the reason why shocks is before wither, is due to the CD on shock. Doing it like this guarantees a 3 stack for FL when you need the big boost of threat.

    Force speed is superior to the jumps sine it closes the same gap as a jump would in the same amount of time, but since it is not required that the mob be there already, you can already sprint there and be ready. Not to mention when you have to move the mob to somewhere else.

    Also…
    Sin tanks are no longer the spikiest, jugs are. Sins have higher mean mitigation and take less damage than the other tanks over the duration of the fight. There are only 2-3 bosses where they may be a bit spiked due to mechanics (terminate on oasis, kephiss on NiM and thrasher on 16man NiM) but that problem has been rectified with 2.5 change to armor.

    Disclaimer:
    I have maintanked on a sin through nerfs and buffs for forever and i raid hm dp/df on my sin, jug and pt. All of em almost equally geared and the sin is the easiest to keep up from all of the three.

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      as far as spikieest and disclaimer, we need to wait for actual nightmare content to give this proper test, once it has been given proper test in real content it will be edited… tanking with 78 gear content that was cleared with 72 and not even BiS (nightmare sav) is childs play, and again clearing hm requires 5% of concentration and minimum skill and gear to clear.

      force speed has some utility but is by far superior from charge, but u are free to believe what you want on that, its not game breaking mechanic at all.

      as far as your opener, it is good, doesnt reflect the same as mine considering i did all the rotations considering perfect situations (Proc) i guess i could add a situation where perfect proc dont happen as alternative.

  • Deskara

    yeah, after watching the vid you posted… you do not know how to tank as a sin. No wonder you hate the class so much.

    • Blissy

      So true, most of the time he is jumping around and losing aggro. I mean the main problem with these guides is that they write their opinions as facts.

      • Ancaglon

        Well… while I disagree with a fair bit of what was written earlier, it IS sometimes necessary to Jump to make sure the server knows exactly where you are, as it forces a resync — otherwise sometimes, as with AEs such as Corrupter Zero’s Anti-gravity field or his Unified Beam death laser, you can be out of the area on your screen but the server still hits you with it. That is also probably good practice for the Brontes Electric Tentacles phase.

        • Carlos Eduardo Mata

          obviously everyone that play this game are experts, dont bother, thats why they come read guides, because obviously anyone that is an expert would waste their time reading a guide from someone else to not learn anything and just trash talk it most of the time just being a random nobody lol… but anyways everyone have their point of views, and are free to decide what and what not to do :), just like most of this comments, ive had multiple recruits in my guild that are just as genius and great players as most of these guys claim to be lol, most of the time dont last 2 weeks before getting kicked for being not good enough, thats how people are, too stubborn to learn :S.

          Thinking you are good or knowing what to do in theory (not referring to you, but Haters in general), is far from being actually good and knowing how to raid :) thats why the competition in progression is so poor and limited to a few guilds, because the others are too busy thinking they are good when they are not, instead of learning from the few people that actually are (me like many other dozens of great players that also try to help and get ignored because “everyone know what to do” but most are not remotely close as good lol :S). unfortunately i can not convince everyone has different opinions :).

          • Blissy

            Let me congratulate you on your unbiased “expert” opinion. Thank gawd there are ppl like you that educate the nooby masses and can perpetuate unfair stereotypes.

            • Carlos Eduardo Mata

              its not expert opinion, could be considered, but its up to point of view, and yes it is unbiased, and its not trying to perpetuate unfair stereotypes, stereotypes are often there for a reason, let me put an example since ive always been one of the “stereotypes” with my op dps, bcause i used to play conceal pre 2.0 and now we are the FoTM stereotype which really piss me off too.

              if anyone write a guide about op dps saying they are far from the best compared to other melee classes or ranged as far as CD, survivability, and even if i believe this is false since i can outperform any class with my operative, it is in fact true and i have no reason to try to prove different.
              marauders have almost same dps with 10 times better CDs offensive,groups and defensive.
              snipers are often a better choice than an operative with teh same dps and way better defensive CD and utility, reason why i often raid with my sniper on certain nim fights regardless of op, even when i am worse, the class out perform it.

              same with other classes, so i cant hide the sun with 1 finger, we are good, ssin tanks are good, but we are not the bst neither i want to try to make everyone believe we are since i dont care, as long as you are good enough for your raid team and better than anyone trying to take your spot you are fine regardless of how you are playing, but i am not going to lie saying ssins are the best tank class on every aspect like people are trying now.

  • Fat Mac

    This guide is absurd. I appreciate the time it took to write it, but someone who mains a sin tank and actually enjoys the class should have written it. The guide feels more like a “well you shouldn’t play sin tank you should do anything else, but if you have to, this is how you play” whereas it should encourage players who have just got their sin tank to 55 to give end game content a go, not feel let down by being known as the off tank class (which is just untrue)

    Several times I’ve run the hardest content with 2 sin tanks and there has never been a problem with regards to healing since 2.5 came into play. I just don’t understand how dismissive the guide is towards sin tanks and as someone mentioned earlier, the opening rotation is wrong! Get keyboardninja to write this guide, he knows what’s he’s talking about and is enthusiastic about the class not negative!

    • Carlos Eduardo Mata

      the “main” a ssin tank is really relative, i pretty much assure u i have played, tested, raided with any of my all 8 classes more than the vast majority of the gaming population, so hiding behind whos your main is not a fact, all my 6 chars could be considered my main as they have been used just as much.

      ive read multiple times the description and no where it says anything u are saying, and this is the same problem with other comments, and merc healer, often the people playing the classes that are “considered” by most people that they underperform (which is not true), people in this position often gets hurt when you say the true and tend to be really extremist, trust me this happened to me when i used my concealment op back before 2.0, doesnt matter how many top 10 parses i had on nim ec and leaderboards, it was never considererd a good class, often people saying good comments like “they are good an useful but still behind marauders on dps” which was true at the time, would make me write 1555321 hating lines on how the guy is an idiot and hes not right because i play this shit and i know its good, so people tend to overreact and be rather extremist when reading stuff that somehow is against or hurt their feeling of what they play instead of looking it an objective way.

      Second, being off tank is not a bad thing neither it is being off healer, as there is no such thing in this game where most of the content require tank swaps… mercenary are the best off heals, and best support heals, that doesnt mean tehy are worst, in fact played well they could be considered the best, as they are pretty well balanced, same with assassin as beside other classes (explained in other comments) can perform way better being an off tank than other two tank classes. short CD and high threat often make assassin the best by far tank class to use for Multiple Add phases AKA off tanking, for example bronters P2 on kephess adds, having a jug tank jumping there with most stuff on CD and maybe no rage generated has a high chance of losing aggro, different from ssin that has the ability to do the highest burst of threat at any time regardless of what happens. now i ask u what is more important in that phase? the main tank standing there doing nothing taking hits from brontes than anyone even a child could do, or the offtank that has the responsibility of taking an add from scratch, position it, hold threat to reduce the amount of dmg the group could take from it, you tell me… it is not our fault that you mistake or dont understand the true purpose of what an offtank means in this game and make up stuff on your own that are not said there when reading.

      quote “as it is the hardest to play well but gives the most utility of all the
      tank classes, and as such makes a better off tank than the other two
      classes. Despite this, a well played Assassin tank should be close to
      equal with either of the other two tank classes.”

      Quote “They have the highest threat and dps rotations, however managing procs and debuffs can make it harder to keep track of.”

      what part of it is not true? you tell me, as all you are saying there unfortunately is not there.

      Being Enthusiastic or negative has nothing to do with writing a guide, if u want me to lie to you and everyone just because i prefer a class over the other like you are being a fan boy of ssin right now making up stuff, thats fine, but it is not a guide.

      unfortunately there is no “hardest content” since 2.5, i dont know how many times i have to say this for people trying to believe there is, any HM content is made to be done by any kind of player, it is completely and stupid easy, the fact that there is a SM below that is even worse as sm is just used for Comms farming and for people that really dont have any kind of time to play more than 1-2 hours weekly maybe with bunch of friend and can find it fun or challenging, HM is cleared by anybody, with a minor skill to beat it, 1 month of HM ops have like 30-50 guild clears in 1 server probably… 1 month of nightmare content has 1 maybe 2 clears per server in good servers, and by the release of new content 2-3 months after nim release, there are probably 5-8 guild that cleared it only, so you cant use 2.5 as a point of comparison.

      the last useful and hard content there was, there were way too many more problems with assassin tahn with any other tank specially on the 16 man content with spike dmg, which lead to these changes, and we have to wait for new nightmare content to give proper test to this changes, otherwise the only accurate info we have is the latest hardest content AKA nim sav / tfb, if the new nim content prove that PT have great flaws and ssin are overpowered then the guide will be edited to reflect that, for now thats not the case.

      • Fat Mac

        That is a long reply answering stuff I didn’t even mention. All I was commenting was on the nature of the guide which felt more elitist and focused on server first rather than helping someone learn how to tank their first operation or HM flashpoint which is more what I was expecting. Obviously if this is more what this site is going for, then fair enough, but at the moment sin tanks can main tank every thing with no problems so I don’t think an elitist view of relegating them to offtank is needed. Obviously when we get Nightmare modes back we’ll be able to see how they function, but until then they’re at least equal to other tanks so treat them as such if you’re going to write a guide on them. Or get someone who actually cares about the class to do it.

        Also I’d rather read a guide from a sin fanboy who actual cares and is enthusiastic about the class as 90% of people reading this guide have a sin tank and want to see how they can make it work. It’s a really off putting to read that you’re relegated to off-tank when for all of the content currently it’s not true.

        I understand you’re very experienced with all 8 characters and I understand the effort you put into creating the guides, but at the same time it’s much more interesting reading guides written from someone who is passionate about the class and wants others to enjoy it, rather than reading the opening line telling them they’re the most underpowered tank. (which I would personally say is conjecture based on your comments below saying you haven’t done the math.)

        • Carlos Eduardo Mata

          yeah sorry i just had to spit it out and your comment was the first lol, i dont believe it is a guide for server first actually, in fact most people complain it is too softcore, but again like i said, everyone have points of views and cant please them all :S

          as far as a guide written by someone who “loves” the class can go different, but not exactly better, fanboys tend to prefer their things over the rest regardless of the arguments, so reading a ssin guide written by any kind of fanboy like the ones in the comment would be like “we are the best tanking class by far, we can face tank any mechanics better than other tanks while also being extremely useful as off tank, best dps rotation, mitigiation less dmg taken, really easy to play and overpowered in almost every aspect” thats what people want to raid? a biased missinformation written by a fanboy? i dont think so, PT and jug have been pretty much steady since release, with minor changes there has never been a moment where jug or pt have been targets of being OP or needing / getting a nerf, neither their community complaining about anything in particular, but ssin have gotten too many ups and downs, first they were weak, then they were OP, they nerfed stats became weak, then way too spikey, now supossed to be balanced with the rest and untested math says “better”, so its not being a fanboy or being biased, is saying the true, you know how many people had to stop playing ssin tank after 2.0 or pyro PT because of nerf, and decided to play other class? or how nobody played op dps and now everyoen wants one? i mean its not being biased, is being realistic, being a PT or jug since release until now is the same, no reasons to be the best and no reasons to be the worst, just a steady class that anyone can play as its main and never complain.

          so saying the ssins have been the best or are the best is really hard to do, because probably in 1 month u will get the classic nerf that would destroy u, or nightmare mechanics will expose them again (lets hope none of this happens to any class), it is usually the roller coaster class of the tanks, this cause is community to always be defensive about everything, because they are often target of critics or stereotypes, so they need to try too hard to convince everyone they are the best instead of just playing their class and be done with it, like i said no one in the jug guide is complaining i didnt say they are the best, they are fine with just being what its written there, but ssins are not fine with quote: “best dps, best mitigation, best threat rotation, best off tank, just as good as other as main tanks” thats not enough somehow, because again, ssins care too much or try too hard on trying to prove they are the best of the best, thanks to the stereotypes. :)

          • Blissy

            You are just not getting the point. The issue is not wether the class is balanced or not or that it takes soms skills to get the most out of it. It is the fact that you go on and on about your achievements as proof of credentials. Your opinions are by no means facts. Saying a class is underpowered and only to be used as offtanks is demoralizing and off putting to anybody who wants to try it.

            Yes pt tanks have been stable since release, juggs have been tweaked and on some respects are op. But that doesn’t mean sins are unplayable nor are they “suboptimal”.

            If you would have said that we in our awesome guild prefer pts and jugs than it wouldn’t have been an issue. OPINION is not FACT!

            • Carlos Eduardo Mata

              ill ask you 3 things, because this conversation is ridiculous. first find 1 sentence where i say “my opinion is a fact”
              second find one sentence where it says the class is “underpowered or suboptimal”
              third explain, what off tank means, since it is really relative and seems like it is hurting you because you might have a different idea of what it is and then tell me how being an “offtank” is bad, i can tell you right now 3 important fights where the off tank is by far more important and superior than being main tank (since as far as it seems everybody definition of main tank = whos tanking the main boss and off tank= whos doing other stuff, because this game has no such thing as “useless offtank” since all fights always force you to tank swap, all of them, or split the mechanics in 2 equal mechanics)

              i have no problem reading comments and critics, arguing gear and rotation and improving stuff, but really piss me off when people go into “fanboy” mode and start taking things out of context or get mad because i didnt say “your class is the best” but answer me those 3 things up there with quotes and not taken out of context please :).

              • Blissy

                Your own words:

                - The Assassin Darkness spec is considered the most underpowered tank spec after patch 2.0, although some of this was slightly alleviated after patch 2.5. ….

                - An Assassin could be considered equivalent to the Mercenary healer of the tank classes, as it is the hardest to play well but gives the most utility of all the tank classes, and as such makes a better off tank than the other two classes.

                - You dont mention that sins can “main” tank teh bosses equally well as the otehr classes.

                These points were brought to you buy other ppl as well.

                Also if you read your responses to practically every comment all of them state the following:
                - your opinion matters because of your server firsts
                - the person making the comment is clearly out of touch with reality and are fanboys of the class.

                Given the insulting nature of your comments and your concuct, if anybody has a right to be pissed off its the ppl that try to bring some counterweight to your repeating diatribe. So do everyone a favor and leave making guides to somebody that cares and who can give beginners sound advice starting out.

                SIns are versatile, they have their utility, they generate a lot of threat and the challenge for them is survival. By no means are they unplayable and can tank the current content as teh other classes. Note that i do not say that sins are the best, all im saying is that the margins between the classes at this point are negligible ant that you can achieve the same result with eitehrjug, pt or a sin.

              • Medievalhorde

                All I’m reading is you’re arguing over the same damn points. Carl never said they couldn’t be main tanks, he has been saying they are the BEST off tanks. I agree with this conclusion. The only downside to sins not main tanking is the loss of energy regeneration which can make up for almost 40% of our total regen and while main tanking spike damage that can cause over-healing or inopportune timed heals if the healers are being reactive instead of being proactive. Besides making lives easier for healers with a smoother profile, Sin tanks are fine to main tank, but the argument is they’d be better off tanks than main tanks. I won’t get into that argument as any conclusive answer is riddled with arguments going either way.I still believe that they ARE the best off tanks.

                I actually have made the point to my groups healers that I’ve died less often than our PT tank in my group due to high damage hits than he has. Sin tanks aren’t under powered, They, however, are not the easiest class to play.

                Also lets be honest here, in NiM TfB and S&V they were considered the most underpowered class of the three tanks. DP, DF and 2.5 has made everyone’s opinion of them much better and I’m happy for that.

              • Blissy

                Then why not revise the overview or better yet delete it.

                Beginners are better off reading the guide posted by Fuyri and looking over Keyboardninjas ideal tanking stats distribution

              • Medievalhorde

                I can’t answer that. I’m not the author.

                Dulfy raids with Carl. I’m sure she feels Carl is more trustworthy than anyone. How Carl writes a guide is up to him. People are free to criticize and point out flaws and argue with him, but when it comes down to it, the guide is up to Carl, Dulfy and Vindrik. No one is forced to read it, but it’s fairly obvious this will likely be one of the most seen guides because it has Dulfy endorsing it meaning it should contain criticisms so it doesn’t lead a new player the wrong way. I’d also rather this not become another Noxxi guide.

                Calling Carl names won’t change his mind. Discussing will. Will this change anything? Who knows, but it’s better than half of these posts being hostile and containing “This guide sucks” “No wonder you hate sin tanks based on your video.” etc etc.

              • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

                Maybe read the last sentence of the overview? ” Despite this, a well played Assassin tank should be close to equal with either of the other two tank classes.” You also need to separate out opinions from objectives. The overview paragraph state the opinion of the author but the rest of the guide does not. A guide should be judged on the merits of its contents, not the opinion the writer may had in the opening paragraph.

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                the overview is revised over and over, by multiple people and it has nothing wrong regardless of your points that have no real arguments and just making up things taking out of context.

                beside that people can read whatever they want and choose whatever they want, fuyri is a good tank, ive seen his streams from SF and he does some mistakes, just like any other player in any raid, just like i do, and my raiders do, hes far from being perfect in all pulls, but better than 99.9% of the rest by far, just like arguably anyone playing in those top guilds, however KBN his numbers and math are fine, cant argue with that but ive never seen him playing, streaming or videos, so i would rather choose fuyri instead of KBN for learning how to play “live” and KBN with math :P if u were to choose between those two.

              • Zelix

                I said this in previous posts, but I’ll make it clear again to be fair. I have all 3 tanks, but I prefer my assassin. That’s just a matter of personal preference. There are times I have to use the my other 2 tanks just simply because it makes it easier for the raid or its more viable to use a different tank. That’s not me trying to say anything negative about sin tanks. That’s just the reality of it. I personally don’t think he’s trying to express some overly biased opinion that “sin tanks are bad.” I think this guide is actually fair in that standing, but I understand the point you are trying to make as a sin tank. That’s precisely the reason we continue to play our class because we don’t want them to be overshadowed. And as it was pointed out already, I really does look like you guys are arguing the same point. You’re just coming at it from different perspectives. Which has led to some obvious hostility lol.

                Personally, I don’t think this guide would discourage someone from playing a sin tank. In fact, I think it’d make them want to play it more because it adds more of a challenged compared to the other 2 tanks. The current reality of it is that sin tanks do have their problems and in some situations probably aren’t the best choice (a fact any player would stumble upon if they legitimately played the class) but its that extra utility and the tricks that they bring that makes them so viable. Whether it be main or off-tanking. And if the players skill level is good enough you won’t see any of those so called flaws that sin tanks have. I’m not trying to belittle your opinion but if the author of a guide
                were considered a “fanboy” then the chances of them only stating partial
                facts is higher. Sometimes you have to just throw everything out there
                for people to just “get it” I would rather have have a sin tank that tries their hardest and keeps at the class knowing about “everything” the class offers (including its so called flaws) vs. a sin tank who only knows one side of the story.

                And as someone who tanks the argument that there really isn’t much difference between main and off tank does sorta stands. Pretty much every operation requires some form of tank swap or splitting the ops group down the middle. And if your guild or raid group is doing what most groups do being they alternate tanks to see both sides of the fight then you really can’t classify them as main or off. It just becomes a matter of what tanks go well together based off of team comp and player skill.

                And at the end of the day it all boils down to they player skill.

                Thanks

                P.S. I also want to mention that I’m speaking about the guide and this conversation itself. Not the 50,000 other conversations that seem to have a lot more biased in them.

              • Carlos Eduardo Mata

                assassin tank was the most underpowered tank spec from 2.0-2.5 there is no argument or doubt on that, thats why they reworked and buffed it, and it was slightly alleviated after 2.5, what part of that is not true?, that is not an opinion it is a fact, otherwise u guys would still have your self heals and lower dmg reduction, the changes lightly alleviated the problem, making them better tanks, it by no means did a drastic change making it overpowered or perfect because thats not true.

                an assassin “could” up to anyone tha wants to think about it, just like merc haeler the best utility tank class, and the best off tank, whats wrong with that? i still dont get it, saying something good and you are complaining, the many utilities from wither / discharge / stealth rez / phase walk / force pull / stealth + medpac make them by far the best Utility tank in the game and also by far the best offtank, as you can apply your debuffs + crowd control + hold threat right away on any add / mechanics AND maneuver your phase walk according to the mechanics to help the group, this is something jugs cant do, and PT are slightly worse.

                lets quote the guide that you are again taking things are out context: “as it is the hardest to play well but gives the most utility of all the
                tank classes, and as such makes a better off tank than the other two
                classes. Despite this, a well played Assassin tank should be equal with
                either of the other two tank classes in their main tanking ability.” so, that doesn’t mention “main” tank the bosses equally well than other classes?.

                you can be mad, you might not like it and you can not read it, no one is forcing you to do that, however it is in fact fanboy opinions most of the times, there are over 12 guides published and no one has any kind of people complaining about the overview more than ssin tanks, dps ssin had slightly the same problem until i brought the example to them and they agreed it was true and beside being a bit extremist on some arguments they were also being biased by how much they like their class.

                your last paragraph is perfect, thats exactly what it is, and no where in the guide says anything that goes against that, unfortunately like i said if you take things out of context everything sound extremist.

                ill write down every point of the overview so you can specifically tell me which part you consider “biased opinion”:

                The Assassin Darkness spec is considered the most underpowered tank spec
                after patch 2.0, although some of this was slightly alleviated after
                patch 2.5…. Fact, theres a reason there were complains and there’s a reason you got reworked and buffed in 2.5.

                They use light armor and a series of talents and abilities to boost
                their armor rating, however their base damage reduction is still
                significantly lower than the other tank classes, while other methods of
                mitigation are higher…. Fact, you use light armor, your dmg reduction is lower by probably 5-7% compared to other tanks, and you in fact have higher mitigation methods from secondary stats.

                They have the highest threat and dps rotations, however managing procs
                and debuffs can make it harder to keep track of. Properly rotating
                cooldowns is an essential part of playing an Assassin tank due to their
                tendency to take more burst damage, giving them a much higher skill
                ceiling than other tanks on certain fights… fact, you do have higher threat and dps rotation, managing D.P and perfectly used dark bulkwark talent is by far more complicated then using Crushing blow every 15 sec or 3 stacks Blast on PT, because i can probably assure you there are very few people that can micromanage bulkwark talent to be perfect, not refreshing dark ward on CD to gain more benefit from the last 7 stacks with absorption debuff. properly using CDs is essential, just like any other class, however their lower dmg reduction makes ssin more spikey, because they are, a non mitigated hit of 34k hits harder on 43% dmg reduction Vs 50% dmg reduction, thats definition of being spikey, how much does abilities hurt when you dont mitigate dmg with Secondary stats, prove me wrong that 43% dmg reduction receive less Non-mitigated dmg than 50-52% dmg reduction.

                .They are the only tank that doesn’t have a charge ability, however
                they do have Force Speed to close gaps, as well as Force Pull to
                maneuver extra adds and boost aggro… fact, wont even explain it.

                An Assassin could be considered equivalent to the Mercenary healer of
                the tank classes, as it is the hardest to play well but gives the most
                utility of all the tank classes… first part “could” be opinion, however it is the vast majority of the assassin opinion that other tanks are lolmode while they are harder, so not sure how that can be “bad” or “good”. the best off tank and utility tank, by far, compare the “group buff” section. lets also have an overview of capabilities while not taking hits:

                ssin= less force regen, however can do their full rotation regardless of that, get electrocute procs, keep D.P up without any special downtime, move phase walk placement and use stealth rez on someone dead considering they have no DoTs to pull them back to combat, only downside: less force = less thrash and slight dps reduction. dmg reduction/accuracy debuff + 5% healing done buffs are still apply able plus D.P stacks.

                Pt: not shielding doesnt let you refresh your rocket punch, resource management is the same, but Blast stacks and Ion cylinder are a bit slower on the target, however compared to ssin they can not battler rez or apply phase walk, so basically their job offtanking is the same as main tanking, brings nothing special to the field. Dmg reduction debuff, no accuracy or healing buff compared to ssin, defensive rotation is slightly slowed from rocket punch.

                Jug: no retaliation, almost no rage generation and great reduce in their dps rotation, however they make up with Intercede and AoE taunt shield on ranged / healer groups to reduce dmg, this is decent, but not even remotely as good as other two class offtanking… Accuracy debuff, Armor reduction, No retaliation available as well as low rage = less uptime on Crushing blow + Force Scream buffs different from main tanking.

                so now explain me how assassins are not superior while offtanking? thanks.

                ” Despite this, a well played Assassin tank should be equal with either
                of the other two tank classes in their main tanking ability.” … oh wait? whats that? did the overview just say they are the BEST off tank class AND just as good as other main tanking, sue me i just totally destroyed assassins tanks saying they are the worst class available!.

                now lets go to main tank off tank situation, main tank is considered the tank that has the “main boss” off tank the one that has the “alternate” mechanics, however this rarely happens in this game with tank swaps and multi-bosses fights, where almost all the time you have the same responsibility… regardless of that let me just point out couple of fights where being “off tank” is much more important than main tank:

                Brontes P2: you not only have to go right away and hold aggro from first arcing slash, but right after you have to do the kephess job, holding Aggro AGAIN with 1 taunt, moving it to a good posision, avoiding it to hit AoE on the group and maybe calling out Lightning ball targets from outside when they appear.. Main tank job: sit there after u did the hard job on threat, taking arcing slash and doing threat, YOLO.

                Trasher nim: this is slightly different, the main tank has to go in first and hold aggro without taunts, however both tanks will equally go to the same number of Sniper phases, BUT the offtank has the most important mechanics, under 50% posistion of trasher for double snipers, which cause probably majority of the wipes in the fight, both tanks go up for snipers, only the offtank position trasher for double sniper either wiping the group or making the fight easier.

                Corruptor Zero: just like brontes, u have to get aggro right away for it, then u have to be good enough to be able to grab all the adds, hold them, position them in AoE, and preferably pull the Elite add towards the boss for more uptime dps for the melee, while main tank sits there taking dmg, asking for a tank swap at 4 stacks, eventually taking boss back on the next adds transition so offtank has the hard job again.

                form nim sav/tfb hm dp/df this are the only 3 fights where there is a real difference between being main tank and off tank.
                the rest have no difference or harder mechanics between main tank off tank, and most can not even be considered main tank / off tank.

                WH: none
                DG: none
                Operator: none
                Kephess:none
                TFB: none

                Dash: none, shield carrier can be any of both regardless of whos taking the dmg.
                titan:none
                city: none, just swap CDs on terminate and GG.
                warlords: tanking tuchuk like tanking sunder is just as important.
                styrak: none, just tank swaps.

                Bestia: none
                tyrans: none
                calph: none
                raptus:none, unless u are a PT to avoid tank swaps.
                Council: none

                neffra: none
                commander: none, in fact being “offtank” holding adds threat and interrupting is way harder than holding the boss not facing group and taunt on threat wipes -.-.
                Grob: none, both mechanics are just as stupid, moving to a crane or grabing adds to fire.

                so yeah basically there are 3 fights that would enter in the deffinition of main tank / off tank and they are all more important to have a good off tank than main tank, so please before taking things out of context or hating something, think about what is written and understand it, dont just say random things that make no sense and reflect none of what is written there.

              • Blissy

                Reading your text has given me a migraine. Stating something over and over again does by no means give credibility to your opinions. Soe please desist and respect that others have their own.

  • Ethir

    I’m quite sure that Cloak+medpack is quite useless. Let’s us consider you are extremely fast; you still lost the amount of heal for that 1 sec you cloak; and it will cost you 3k-5k heal depend on situation. The highest heal from medpack is 6k; so it equal to useless ability and better not use because of the risk of losing hate for that 1 sec could cause chaos.

    • Ancaglon

      It’s more a case of resetting the reuse on the medpac, ideally when you’re not actively tanking something.

      • Ethir

        If it’s an ability can only use when assassin/shadow is not maintank then it should be counted as defend mechanism. Being able to use as many as medpack sound really nice if they did not minus the amount of heal lost due to cloak and the cool down of med pack; so actually each time you can only be heal from 1k to 3k health while risking the chaos in the pt, and may be even dead.

        • Medievalhorde

          I don’t think I follow your logic. It’s a free defensive cool down and literally takes less than a second to do. If you can’t find a time to use it when you’re not taking damage in a fight, you’re doing something wrong. It also takes less than a second to use force cloak and then taunt because they aren’t on the same global cooldown. Honestly I think your concern is misplaced.

          • Ethir

            Ever do it in a real fight ? When ur tanking ? When ur not taking damage ? You’re a tank; when ur not taking damage ? If you’re tanking boss and you don’t taking damage it’s mean you’re hacking something. And excuse me; if ur not taking damage why the heck would you cloak to lose 3k to 5k heal ? Less than 1 sec ? Make a macro; do it in a real fight; see how ur ping match up with your imagine of less than 1 sec. A real fight is very different from looking at a bunch of cool down and imagine when to use each one.

            • Medievalhorde

              Why I choose to respond to you concerns me, but I’ll make this real clear. You are never taking damage 100% of the time. Every boss save a few require a tank swap. There are also plenty of interlude periods between boss attacks that you can abuse this. taunting right after a stealth pop will ensure you don’t lose agro as it does take the boss a moment to switch to another target. You also don’t seem to understand that when you pop stealth, it refreshes the med pac. You don’t have to use said med pac until it’s needed. So yes while you might lose “3-5k” heals. you are effectively saving those heals for a later time when you might actually need them.

              Honestly I’ll say this right now. “Ever do it in a real fight ?” is pretty much equivelent to “do you even lift bro” Which is completely retarded. Also yes, I have and I’ll say it’s pretty simple to do this trick.

              • Ethir

                Now if you honestly want to be rude I can be too. Are you an idiot ?

                1st If it is tank swap; then your cool down can cover everything so cloak medpack is never ever needed unless your group is so bad.

                2nd Saving medpack for when needed huh ? I guess you only did offtank; as a main tank you don’t have that luxury. When you cloak is different from when you taunt the boss; the boss will face back to dps and pounce them right away. So you’re actually put stress on healer; not only you waste their 3k-5k heal; you force them to heal dps when it’s not needed.
                3rd; “Do you even lift bro”; you’re not my friend nor my acquaintance; calling s.o bro in a question is idiotic. Shadow lift worth 8 sec; so only use it in solo and useless in group. So here is my question: What is the connection between “lift” and applying “Cloaking” in tanking boss ?
                Finally; this is something I must stress myself. This is not a mechanism that was designed to tank. It means for solo and pvp when you need to escape. Therefore, in every bosses fight; the need to use 2nd medpack WAS NEVER considered. Concluded, using cloaking to use 2nd medpack in a fight is either your group is doing something wrong; or you are doing something wrong.
                p/s: care to post any boss fight that you’re main tank and able to do this trick ?

              • Medievalhorde

                To answer your question all of them as a main tank. Also we do it because WE CAN. Why not have more than one use of a medpac. I’ve done plenty of main tanking and offtanking and this trick works perfectly fine. Do I need to use more than one medpac in a fight? No not really, but I do so because I can and reusable medpacs make it simplistic at best to do over and over. It also might mean I don’t have to use a cooldown because I can pop it and get 6k back.

                I will say this again. Cloaking out and taunting are doable within a second of each other because they don’t share a global cooldown, how cloaking out is bad is beyond me. It allows you to use a free cooldown more than the intended one time.

                If you’re going to insult my group bud, I’m at least open with who I am. I’m Remari, Medieval and Uzero from Hatred who has cleared all of the content in the game. I question if you have the same stature to say I’m an idiot in what I am talking about. I know the damn content and this is my main class.

                Long story short, you’ll change nothing because both the author of this guide nor anyone else is going to care to agree with you. It’s completely false that it is a waste. It has its uses and it’s incredible simple to use along with the sole fact it’s a 6k self heal that can be used over and over again.

              • Ethir

                And I said again; all you had showed me is something any idiot could say because “He look at the skill table”. Show me that you could do it in a clip. And ur characters or bud suppose to ring any bell to me ? Do you know how many servers are there in the game ? each server how many guilds that had finished all content ? And please just because you finished all content does not meant you had done the game correctly. A bad guild could just grind all 78 mods to then do HM DP with ease. Please don’t delude urself, you will just one of hundreds others no name player. Well; the majority of the world are still believe that Homosexual are born but that does not mean it truth, the same is here, If you HAD to use a 2nd medpack, stealth res that meant ur group did something wrong or bad BECAUSE the game did not designed those skills as a cooled down, you guys are abusing a bug.

              • RandomTank

                It’s not a bug, it’s a clever way of using in game mechanics to help you and your team to further there goals. yes the way it is worded is misleading, but what they are saying is using your cloak (which drops you from combat) resets your timers on Adrenals and Medpacs. This makes it so for every boss fight you potentially have 2x medpacs 2x adrenals. That is what it is used for.

                As a final note, if you need to use a medpac in a fight or adrenals that doesn’t make your team bad, that makes you smart and helping your healers out trying to take some of the stress off them.

              • Ethir

                Well actually it does make ur team look bad base on everyone consider it a “defensive cool down ability”. Because as I had said: It is not a game mechanic that you should ever needed to use more than 1 medpacs per fight and since it is a “defensive cool down ability” we should use it as much as possible, therefore the team including tanks had done something wrong that lead to the needed of 2nd medpacs.

              • Zelix

                In all honesty, I’m just commenting because this conversation is pretty
                damn funny. As someone who has cleared the content on an Assassin tank I can say that this is by no means an exploit and it most certainly does not have to be used. Saying someone’s guild or raid group is bad because they choose to use an “option” that is available to them is just flat out petty. That’s like me being an asshole and talking about the broken English you’ve been using through out the entire conversation. Trolling aside, you should be happy that people are taking the time to wrap their heads around what it is you’re trying to say and giving you a response without being rude and having to deal with you being a total prick.

                Everyone here has been trying to tell you that it’s optional yet you refuse to acknowledge that simple fact. I’m not sure if you yourself use an assassin tank, and from the look of how this conversation has progressed I’m under the belief you DO NOT. Every class has their tricks. And just like how stealthers have the OPTION to reset their med pacs and adrenals by vanishing they also have the option to rez you if you die; that being something that your argument states would also be considered, “not a game mechanic.” Now if you’re going to try to sit and tell everyone here that you do not utilize “stealth rez” in raids (which, by the way, the moment you vanish to rez it will reset your med pacs by taking you out of combat.) then you sir are just a flat out liar.

                Not sure why it had to escalate to this point but I really do hope it ends here.

                Thanks for you time!

              • Ancaglon

                So much self-ownage from Ethir… the classic being how he brags about how l33t he was doing EV/KP, then later tries to diss others because they can only get things done in the game… :D

              • LoL

                lol …ummm. there is a thing called ‘tank swaps’ I still do use frequently use medpac+cloak. For example(s) during the Raptus phase for tanking challenge phase. Also i use it during Tryans when there is a tank swap for simp. I get a bubble, then when it wears off i do shroud, and then a Overcharge Saber then a Medpac then a cloak to reset the medpac just in case it gets out of control and i need a quick heal. so going towards your more 1, 2, and 3rd statements.
                for the 1st. If u was MT and needed a tank swap you wont have cd’s to cover everything. dont be stupid. be more realistic.
                for the 2nd. Medpac’s are actually useful to any grp no matter how good or bad you are. i run with a top guild, and i still carry a medpac with me. Again, there are tank swaps, maybe you dont know what those are apparently. So when you cloak aka lets say Raptus again. You call out for a taunt, do u ever use voice communication? That way the other tank taunts n you can medpac+cloak to reset the cd of the medpac. that puts no stress on any healer or dps. if you dont know how to call out a taunt then you my friend need to go back to tanking fp’s or re-learn how to tank better.
                3rd. if that grp resets his medpac for the 2nd time, let’s say a long fight NiM Stryak, when it first came out. was never a bad idea. Nor is it nobody doing something wrong.
                P.S: if you dont know how to do this trick to reset your medpac, you’re either really oblivious or just down right stupid on how tanking n why there are 2 tanks. Either you cannot communicate with your fellow tank or just dont know what your doing in terms of boss fights that require a tank swap.

              • Ethir

                It’s seem you mis understood my word. I said if there is tank swap; you don’t really need cloaking to abuse med pack, because the swap allowed your cool down ready for anything that could happen in ur turn. And I did use medpack, also did know how to do cloak res or cloak medpack, actually I was one of the few that knew about those before others, when the game was still pay to play and KP and EV was top.
                I am saying is: The mechanic of the game or any fight was NEVER count in the 2nd medpack per person or more than 1 res per fight or per 15 min I think – I never pay attention to the timer of the res -. Therefore IF you ever need to use the 2nd medpack in 1 fight – even with tank swap – that is mean your group did something wrong not because you’re a pro or you’re so good to be able to use 2nd medpack. Only and idiot would consider that is a good thing.

              • Ancaglon

                Well, your memory must be at least somewhat faulty, because it was never necessary prior to patch 1.2 to “reset” the Medpac cooldown — it was only introduced in 1.2, alongside Explosive Conflict operation. If you were stealthing out to reset medpacs “when KP and EV was top”, you were deluded.

                http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/1.2.0/legacy

              • Ethir

                And you have brain damage. I never ever said I used cloak to reset medpack cool down; I only said I used more than 1 medpack.

              • Ancaglon

                Nope, you just proved you’re the one without a functioning brain. Prior to 1.2 EVERYONE could use a Medpac as often as the cooldown expired — no “cloak medpack” required (YOUR words). Still, I guess you must consider yourself special being able to walk and talk at the same time as well.

              • Ethir

                Sigh… I keep forgetting I was talking to an idiot that can not process anything unless it spoon feeding him on a silver platter. READ MY WORD CAREFULLY idiot and use your damaged brain for once. And when I said KP and EV till top it’s meant people till doing it for items drop in nightmare mode you moron. This is why I hate talking with you idiots; it’s like you can’t accomplish anything beside virtual world.

              • Medievalhorde

                Don’t even respond to him. He is literally too stupid to notice any longer. I’m usually pretty chill with arguing and seeing two sides of the story, but I swear I’m getting more and more stupid trying to explain how this mechanic works and how it isn’t detrimental nor an exploit.

  • RandomTank

    Discharge should have a disclaimer to it that reads something like: only if the debuff isn’t about to fall off, If it is discharge has a higher priority than other abilities.

    Shock actually has potential to do more threat than wither which is another reason it should be used first before wither in your opener.

    Recklessness should be used every time it comes off CD when you have 3 stacks of harness darkness, reason for this is only the first tick of force lightning eats a charge of recklessness but allows the whole channel to have the increased crit chance so increasing the threat of force lightning during the whole channel as well as the Shock that would follow after.

    And with the opening statement of “Tanking Strategies” is a little misleading, Dark Protection isn’t the most important buff to keep up. It’s meh at best. Over a full 5 min boss fight it really only contributes 2-3% of total mitigation from damage and is therefore not extremely important. Now I’m not saying don’t bother with the stacks, get them if you can, but over all in the grand scheme of things don’t worry if the stacks fall off. They don’t add enough mitigation to make it important.

    As a final note, after reading a lot of the comments in this section and on some of the other guides, I applaud you guys for making guides that are much better than Noxxic for a starting point, but next time try and get some people that actually main and concentrate mostly on those classes. There are a few things that aren’t entirely correct or sound misleading in some of these guides. Other than that good job on your effort to better inform the masses about the classes they play.

  • Zoephia

    Right now im in some 69′s. im been building up my comms, but i still don’t have a lot. should i just buy the gear with comms and tokens and not worry about my stats (min maxing according to this guide) until i get to full 78′s or will my stats make all the difference when i try to tank?

    • Blissy

      priority is getting the setbonus:.
      2-piece: Increases shield chance by an additional 5% during Dark Ward or Kinetic Ward.
      4-piece: Increases Elemental, Internal, Kinetic and Energy damage reduction by 2%.

      Buying comms gear gives you lots of endurance and minimal secundary stats. The enhancements bought with comms gear especially. A good 72 (bulwark/bastion) enhancement even 69 is better than a crappy 78 one. Minmaxing is the way to go, your healer will thank you.

    • Seiei

      I tank hardmode Dread Fortress/Palace on my assassin.

      In my opinion, 69s are fine for HM flashpoints. 72s are fine for SM ops.

      78s are where you really need to minmax, for HM ops. And you’d need a combination of gear obtainable from comms, raids, and crafting, in order to minmax properly.

      • Blissy

        You don’t need 78s for HM ops. Its made for 72+. You can tank SM ops with 66/69 if you have your stats balanced. The only way to fail at SM opsis if you’re running around with comm gear full of endurance, alacrity and accuracy and don’t know the tactics.

  • Tomi Kaistila

    Thank you very much for this article; I recently came back into the game and leveled a sith assassin, which now places me where I need to figure my gear. The above article answered most of my questions but I am curious about the relics;

    The above listed do not include the Arkanian Relic of Ephemeral Mending. I did not think of at first but I ran into several threads on the forums where assassin tanks swear by it; saying that the BiS relics are Ephemeral Mending, because it gets procced by virtually every self heal, and Fortunate Redoubt.

    Is this true or has something changed in the game; is Ephemeral Mending still worth taking as an assassin tank?

    • Geedai

      I did not research this subject much, but in update 2.5 in the tanking spec they took out the self healing that was done by Force Lightning (Telekinetic Throw for Shadows) and Dark Charge (Combat Technique). The only self heals now are Overcharge Saber (Battle Readiness) and medpacs so I believe the Ephemeral Mending relic is not useful anymore.

      • Tomi Kaistila

        Ahh, kk, thanks for the response. Was going to buy my relics this morning and was suddenly not quite as sure as I had been about which ones to buy :D

  • random

    btw there is another very good sin tank set up thats heavy on endurance http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/cedeaaff-e19f-4f16-b384-3f04745dd552 its cleared all of the new HM content and the healers with us said it was very easy to heal and this was with 2 sin tanks of the same build

    • Medievalhorde

      No it really isn’t, just because you can clear it with 50k HP doesn’t mean it’s optimal or good.

  • Random

    Thanks for the great guide. I just have a quick question about the stat budget. Am i supposed to add up the relic proc bonus stat to the actual budget? Because i’m currently full 72s and i can’t even reach 2000 stat budget, while a fully augment Ark is supposed to rank 2150.

    • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

      Yes I believe relic procs are added to the budget

      • DARK

        No you do not add the bonus proc mitigation.

    • Jennifer Smith

      If you can’t reach 2000 defensive stat budget in full 72s, then you are likely way endurance heavy in your gear, a full set of Arkanian, properly set up (replacing the Accuracy and Alacrity mods/enhancements) will be lower on endurance. Remember, high health numbers may look impressive, but without the defensive stats to back them up, you might as well be made of tissue paper. And higher health pool will come with better gear anyway, you don’t have to worry about stacking for it.

      If your 72s come from the coms vendor, they will mostly have higher endurance than you really need. You also want to make sure you are using defensive stat augments, and not Fortitude augments (they only add endurance and power, not defensive stats).

      You have to play around with the gear you get from coms and drops to get the stats you want/need, and the stat balance as well.

      The only thing that is counted in that is not on gear or from buff would be your stim, but that affects defense rating and endurance.

  • jozopucik

    Hi, thnx for the guide, you guys must have a LOT of free time to post play, post stuff and comment all together :)

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