Class guides SWTOR Tanking

SWTOR Immortal Juggernaut Tanking Class Guide

A guide to SWTOR Immortal Juggernaut Tanking for PvE. Written and edited by Invinc and Vindrik of Harbinger.


The Juggernaut Immortal class is the all-rounder of the tank classes, being relatively good at everything. They have high mitigation and damage reduction, the best defensive CDs available, and above average group utility, but below average threat control and dps. Most of their threat generation comes from high threat abilities instead of raw dps. They have some procs and buffs to maintain that make the rotation a little less balanced than Powertechs, but keeping them up is really simple and doesn’t require RNG to get an edge. They lack any ranged ability besides Saber Throw, and Rage generation could be considered worse than the other tanks’ resource management, especially when it comes to burst damage. The Juggernaut is also the worst off tank class other than for applying an armor reduction debuff, as a lot of their rotation and Rage management requires them to be regularly taking damage. Saber Reflect is an incredibly powerful cooldown, and the most versatile and useful CD you have access to.

Offensive Cooldowns:

  1. Enrage: Immediately generates 6 Rage.

Defensive Cooldowns:

  1. Endure Pain: Increase your maximum HP by 30% for a short while. The extra HP is lost when the effect wears off
  2. Saber Ward: Increase user melee and ranged Defense chance by 50%, and reduce all Force and Tech damage taken by 25% for a short while
  3. Saber Reflect: Reflects any targeted ranged, Force or Tech abilities back at the attacker for a few seconds, and generates a high amount of threat on all nearby enemies
  4. Enraged Defense: Grants 10 charges of Enraged Defense for 30 seconds. Whenever you take damage, a charge is consumed, healing you for a moderate amount. Can be used while stunned, but cannot be used while above 70% max HP
  5. Invincible: Reduces damage taken by 40% for a short while

Tricks of the Trade:

  1. Single target and AoE taunts
  2. Intercede: Leap directly to a friendly target, lowering their threat and reducing their damage taken by 20% for a few seconds
  3. Intimidating Roar: 6 second AoE incapacitate
  4. Force Push: Pushes an enemy backwards a significant distance


Immortal (36 / 8 / 2):


Note: Points from Vicious Retaliation in Immortal tree could be used in Rule of Two (36 / 8 / 2) to get a speed boost on certain boss fights that require constant movement and deal consistent AoE damage.Two points in Accuracy in the Vengeance tree could also be used in Dreadnaught in the Vengeance tree for more DPS, this is entirely up to personal preference.

1.1 Rates (1-10):

  • Single Target Dps / Threat: Dps 3 / Threat 8
  • AoE Dps / Threat : Dps 5 / Threat 7
  • Group Utility: 9
  • Rotation Difficulty: 5
  • RNG Dependant: No
  • Defensive Cooldowns: 10
  • Spikiness: 2
  • Signature Ability: Saber Reflect

1.2 Gearing & Stats Priority:

Secondary Tanking Stat Distribution

a) Author Recommended

Note: To get your total secondary stat pool, add up your shield, defense, and absorption in the character stats with a stim on.

  • Shield Rating: 30% – 39% of your total secondary stat pool. 35% = 850 Rating
  • Defense Rating: 34% – 42% of your total secondary stat pool. 37% = 900 Rating
  • Absorption Rating: 25% – 30% of your total secondary stat pool. 27% = 650 Rating

b) KeyboardNinja’s theorycrafted numbers for ideal distribution

To use these numbers, you must add up you shield, defense, and absorption in the character stats with a stim on to get your stat budget. These numbers assume you are using Reactive Warding and Fortunate Redoubt relics as they are less accurate with other relic types. Lastly these numbers are for hardmode Dread Fortress/Dread Palace averaged and may not be accurate for future operations/Nightmare mode. Read this post by KBN if you want the full run down.

Stat Budget Defense Shield Absorb Full set
1900 964 606 330  
2000 967 646 387  
2100 970 687 443  
2200 974 728 498 Augmented Arkanian (2181)
2300 979 768 552  
2400 985 809 606  
2500 991 850 659  
2600 998 891 712  
2700 1005 931 763 Dread Foraged (2721)
2800 1014 972 814  
2900 1022 1013 865  
3000 1032 1053 915  

Other Stats

  • **Must Have** Accuracy: 104% Force – 94% melee (1% from companion + 3% from talent = 0% from Gear)
  • **Must Have** Alacrity: 0%
  • **Must Have** Surge Rating: 0
  • **Must Have** Critical Rating: 0
  • **Must Have** Power: 0 (except for that gained by augments)
  • **Must Have** Augments: Shield (Shield) / Defense (Redoubt) / Absorption (Absorb) to meet the above percentages
  • Relics: Shield Amplification, Fortunate Redoubt, Reactive Warding (dependent on the fight, you can pick whoever two you need)
  • Set Bonus: 4 piece War Leader’s
  • Soresu Form

1.3 Tanking Strategy:

The Juggernaut Immortal spec could be considered the most typical tanking class in the game compared with other MMO tanks. They are built with heavy armor and strong defensive CDs, a decently difficult threat rotation and a good combination of both passive buffs and procs. Its main strength comes from Crushing Blow, which deals a significant amount of damage and triggers one of your most important buffs to maintain. Force Scream is also very useful, thanks to its damage as well as the benefit from the Sonic Barrier talent and the set bonus. Retaliation is a non-GCD ability with a short CD, which can’t miss and also grants an important buff to maintain. Besides that, Sundering Assault builds Rage and applies an armor reduction debuff, Smash also applies the debuff but also has higher damage and threat, Backhand for high threat and Force Choke as a filler to generate extra Rage. With a great balance between passives, procs and strong cooldowns, the Juggernaut is an excellent all-around tank class to play.

  • Crushing Blow is the most important ability in your rotation, as it triggers a +3% damage reduction buff that should be consistently maintained, as well as generating a high amount of threat and dealing a significant amount of damage.
  • Force Scream is another high priority ability, particularly thanks to Sonic Barrier and your set bonus, as it grants you a protective shield that will absorb some incoming damage.
  • Retaliation is an ability that gains more buffs from talents than any other. It becomes usable when you defend an attack, so it’s rarely usable while off tanking, however, Lash Out increases its critical chance, Vicious Retaliation reduces its CD while Saber ward is active for Retaliation spam and Blade Barricade increases your defense chance by 5% for 10 seconds after using it. All this utility and potential damage in a non-GCD 1 Rage cost ability with a short CD, makes Retaliation a must-use ability for at all times.
  • Sundering Assault is your main Rage generation ability as well as your most important providing great group utility in the form of an armor reduction debuff. It should be used as often as possible.
  • Smash serves the same purpose as Sundering Assault in giving an armor reduction debuff thanks to the Crushing Fist talent, as well as having its cost reduced through the Revenge talent’s proc. It will also give a 5% Accuracy reduction all enemies it hits, so using Smash in your rotation is a must regardless of how many enemies there are.
  • Backhand does exactly what it says, with little room for interpretation. It’s damage isn’t particularly impressive, but it’s free and generates a lot of threat, making it ideal for holding aggro.
  • Force Choke could be considered a dot due to the Force Grip talent, which removes the channeling time of the ability, making it a 3 second dot that generates Rage at no cost.
  • Ravage is often confused to be a Juggernaut’s best ability for holding aggro because it deals the highest damage, however that doesn’t take threat multipliers into account. Using Ravage in your opening rotation will only cause you to lose aggro, as even though it has a high damage output, its threat generation is nothing special, and it’s a long channel. Using it on for dps and as part of a burst rotation, as well as a filler once your threat is secure, utilises its strengths much more efficiently.
  • Vicious Throw gains nothing special from any talents, but is your hardest hitting ability once your target is below 30% HP. Using it when available as often as possible is useful, as long as it doesn’t interrupt your defensive proc abilities, and should take priority behind those.
  • Vicious Slash is your dps filler. It’s basically an ability to burn excess Rage, as it does little else except damage and a mediocre amount of threat.
  • Assault is your filler Rage generation ability. While in Soresu form, however, it will only generate 1 Rage per hit, and as such is particularly lackluster. It’s best to use only when you are low on Rage and have no other abilities to use.
  • Force Push is a free ability on a 1 minute CD, which does higher damage than Assault and costs less than Vicious Slash. You should use it any time you are short on Rage to fill an extra GCD, or just as some quick burst damage instead of an Assault.
  • Saber Throw is the only ranged ability available for the Juggernaut. It does some decent damage and generates Rage, and should be used in your opening rotation. In fights with multiple targets, it may be worth using Saber Throw on a distant target instead of using Assault on your own target.

1.4 Defensive Cooldowns Explanation:

  • Saber Reflect is your most powerful cooldown, as it has the ability to absorb a variety of abilities and avoid several mechanics, similar to Force Shroud, with the added bonus that it also works on ranged attacks, reflects damage back to the attackers and generates a great deal of AoE threat due to Intimidating Presence. Using Saber Reflect early on after pulling a group of mobs is an excellent way to generate aggro, and should cause them to stay on you for a while without requiring an AoE taunt.
  • Saber Ward is your best long duration CD, and it does a little bit of everything. It gives you +50% ranged and melee Defense, as well as decreasing all incoming Force and Tech damage by 25%, and thanks to Blade Turning and your set bonus, gives you 100% ranged and melee Defense for its first 3 seconds.
  • Endure Pain is a great short-term healing talent, since it increases your maximum HP by 30%. There are two methods of using it, either by predicting an incoming hard hitting phase and using it regardless of your HP, allowing your healers to keep you as high as possible, or as an emergency heal while at extremely low HP, which will basically heal you up 30% HP instantly. Keep in mind that after the 20 seconds run out, you will lose the buff and excess HP, meaning that if you are below 30% as it expires you will have 1 HP.
  • Invincible is overall your worst personal CD. It lasts for a decent amount of time, and the -40% damage taken buff is good thanks to the high base damage reduction you already have, however it’s only a poor cooldown because your others are so effective.
  • Intercede could be considered a CD, however it’s more a defensive CD for one of your party members rather than yourself. This is because it will reduce your target’s damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds after you leap to them, in addition to lowering their threat. In order to utilise its effects, you can use it on a dps to lower their threat while off tanking in a burst rotation, particularly to help with early initial aggro, you can use it on a dying target or someone that is about to be hit, or you can coordinate with the main tank to use it on them during a particularly heavy hitting phase to reduce their incoming damage, in conjunction with their taunt to counteract the loss of threat.
  • Enraged Defense: grants 10 charges of Enraged Defense for 30 seconds. Whenever you take damage, a charge is consumed, healing you for a moderate amount. Can be used while stunned, but cannot be used while above 70% max HP.

1.5 Group Buffs:

  • Sundering Assault: Applies an armor reduction debuff
  • Smash and Sweeping Slash: 5% Accuracy reduction to all affected targets
  • Threatening Scream: Damage prevention shield applied to all nearby friendly targets
  • Intercede: Reduces target’s damage taken by 20% for a few seconds and reduces their threat

1.6 Ability Priority:

  1. Crushing Blow: CB
  2. Force Scream: FS
  3. Retaliation: RT
  4. Sundering Assault : SA
  5. Smash
  6. Backhand: BH
  7. Force Choke: FC
  8. Ravage: RV
  9. Vicious Throw
  10. Vicious Slash
  11. Assault
  12. Force Push
  13. Saber Throw: ST

Defensive Cooldown Priority:

  1. Saber Reflect
  2. Saber Ward
  3. Endure Pain
  4. Invincible
  5. Intercede
  6. Enraged Defense

1.7 Opening Rotation

Note: Taunt use is relative, depending on the fight and your ops group. Read the “How Taunt Functions” section to understand when best to use your taunts.

Pre-cast Enrage + ST (optional) + Force Charge + Smash + CB / RT + BH + FS + FC / RT + SA + RV + Smash + CB


1.8 AoE Ability Priorty & Explanation

  1. Smash
  2. Crushing Blow
  3. Sweeping Slash
  4. Retaliation
  5. Force Scream
  6. Saber Reflect

AoE Ability Explanation:

  1. Smash is your most important AoE ability due to its incredible utility, applying both an armor reduction debuff and an accuracy debuff to all targets. It also deals decent damage and high threat to multiple targets, so it should be used on CD when AoE tanking.
  2. Crushing Blow gives you your most important buff which should be maintained all the time. It also has the ability to hit multiple targets if you hit a target affected by armor reduction, meaning that it synergises perfectly with Smash. This causes it to deal high damage and high threat to multiple targets.
  3. Sweeping Slash is often overlooked and considered a weak ability when compared to other tank AoE abilities, however it’s actually more powerful than most people give it credit for, primarily due to the fact that it has no cooldown. Most of a Juggernaut’s Rage generation comes from taking hits, and AoE groups are excellent for that. Sweeping Slash deals relatively high damage and threat for an AoE ability with no CD, and its Rage cost is not excessive, making it a great spammable ability while AoE tanking.
  4. Retaliation is an off-GCD ability with a 1 Rage cost which grants you a very important buff. It should be used on a single target within a group, though depending on the complexity of the group threat, using it on CD is relative. If you can control the group without much trouble, use Retaliation on CD for a quick burst of single target damage and threat, but if you need to save Rage for Sweeping Slash spam in order to maintain aggro, use it only to keep the buff active.
  5. Force Scream depends on the complexity of the group and threat required as to how often it will be used. For groups where you can control threat easily, using it regularly is a must to give you Sonic Barrier, however replacing it with Sweeping Slash for threat is useful for holding aggro.
  6. Saber Reflect when used as a threat generation CD is incredibly powerful, since it generates high threat on all targets within 30 yds, as well as increasing your threat by reflecting incoming damage back to its source. This excellent threat generation causes Saber Reflect to be considered the clutch threat ability for AoE rotation when needed.

1.9 AoE Ability Rotation:

Note: Considering we can’t measure the amount of Rage you have beginning the phase or gained from hits, we will assume that you will have enough Rage for all the abilities listed in an ideal situation, using Enrage or Sundering Assault in the rotation as needed to keep up the rotation. Any group pulled from melee range would remove Force Charge from the rotation and not consider the Rage it generates.

Pulling from range, average complexity:

Force Charge + Smash + CB / RT + Sweeping Slash + FS + Sweeping Slash spam while waiting for CDs to finish


Pulling from range, difficult complexity:

Force Charge + Smash + CB / RT + Sweeping Slash + Sweeping Slash + Sweeping Slash + FS + Sweeping Slash spam while waiting for CDs to finish


Pulling from range, difficult complexity, can’t afford to lose aggro:

Force Charge + Smash / Saber Reflect + CB / RT + Sweeping Slash + FS + Sweeping Slash spam while waiting for CDs to finish


1.10 Video

Video of typical tanking in operations


1.11 Tips and Tricks

  • Sith Warrior resources work differently from all of the other classes, and it’s sometimes difficult to manage well and be as efficient as you can. Make sure that you are always generating enough Rage to be able to use your more powerful abilities as they become available, instead of having to delay them because you used too much Rage too early.
  • Although Ravage has a 3 second channel time, the damage that it deals does not actually require the full 3 seconds. One of the most important tricks for Warriors is to take advantage of the fact that while the animation takes 3 seconds to complete, the final tick of damage (there are 3 hits total), happens around the 2.5-2.8 second mark. Once you see that third hit in the combat text, regardless of whether the animation is done or not, you should use your next ability. Doing this, and practicing exactly when to stop the channel based on your personal latency, is an excellent way to maximise your damage output.
  • Intercede is a great ability to help during heavy incoming damage phases or to save a dps who has taken aggro. Whenever an ops member other than your second tank is about to take a significant hit, either from a mechanic or from taking aggro on the boss, it’s generally a good idea to spend that GCD using Intercede to give them an extra 20% damage reduction, as this could easily be the difference in whether they survive or not.
  • Keep in mind that Threatening Scream will apply a protective shield to any friendly targets in your immediate vicinity, so every time you use your AoE taunt, you should be trying to maximise its benefit. Using your Threatening Scream on ranged dps and healing groups to shield them while off tanking without stealing aggro from the boss is a great way to gain as much utility from this talent as possible.

1.12 General Tanking Strategies

  • Differently from dps cooldowns, tank CDs are not something you should be trying to use as much as possible in a boss fight, because you never know when something might happens that may cause the healers to need an extra boost in order to keep you alive. That being said, on fights that have high standard incoming damage with no mechanic potential for burst, it is generally a good idea to hold on to one cooldown in case of an emergency, but cycle through any others in order to mitigate as much damage as possible for the length of the fight.
  • A common mistake from average inexperienced Flashpoint tanks is thinking that taunt will basically keep the boss on you no matter happens, without understanding how it actually functions. The reality is that taunts do have 6 seconds where the boss will be forced to attack you, however immediately following that, if your threat is not high enough you will lose aggro again. As such, taunt’s real job is to keep you at the top of the threat meter, since a taunt will always give you aggro equal to the highest person on the threat meter, plus an extra 10%. This means that if you taunt during your initial pull, you will hold the boss for 6 seconds, but that extra 10% will be wasted, as 10% of a small amount of initial aggro is not as effective as waiting for a few seconds until your threat is higher before taunting, which will give you a higher increase and make it harder for the dps to pull off of you. Due to this functionality, you are best off opening with your high-threat abilities to hold initial aggro for the first few GCDs, and once dps start doing their highest peak of damage and threat a few seconds in, or as soon as you lose aggro, use your single taunt, as this will put you above the highest current threat by 10%, at which time the dps should use their threat drops. Good dps should know that after the first taunt is an ideal time to use their threat drop, as it maximises the threat cushion gained by the tank. This will give you enough room to hold boss for another few GCDs at least, before perhaps having to use an AoE taunt to do the same thing again. Following that, your single target taunt should be available shortly thereafter, and this method should secure you as the top threat for the remainder of the fight. If you are worried about threat in general, using taunt as it becomes available will boost your threat generation significantly, just ensure that you aren’t using it on cooldown in fights that require tank swaps, as you should always have it available when it’s needed.
  • The highest burst dps done in any boss fight is generally at the start of the fight, since everyone will have pre-cast their abilities and buffs and cooldowns, Bloodthirst | Inspiration, adrenals and relics. Because of this, asking a dps to push their damage as high as possible is essentially hamstringing your ops group, especially for fights that have tight Enrage timers. Initial tank rotations are specifically designed to generate enough threat to hold aggro off of any dps regardless of how good they are, so you should never be struggling for threat.
  • A great deal of tanks confuse the Guard tooltip’s PvE and PvP aspects, and don’t quite understand how it actually works. In PvE, Guard reduces the target’s damage taken by 5% and reduces threat generation by 25%. The 50% damage transference is only activated in PvP combat. This means that you should either be guarding the two highest dps if you are worried about losing aggro, or anyone that will be taking excessive mechanic damage as part of the fight.
  • A good tank should always be doing their best to try and make everybody else’s job as simple and easy as possible. As such, the boss should be tanked in place as often as possible, placed in a position where they are easily accessible to all members of the ops group, and never moved out of ground AoE when it’s not necessary.
  • Assisting with the group’s overall dps is always a good idea. Doing your best to deal as much damage as possible while tanking will help to push Enrage timers and burn phases, and will still generate a high amount of threat.
  • Being able to adapt quickly to emergency situations, such as an impromptu Stealth rez, is a must, and you should always be aware of ways to mitigate your own damage taken, and maximising the chance of a successful rez when this happens.
  • Adjusting your user interface to help you perform well is incredibly helpful, including enabling the target of target and focus target windows in your interface editor. Always knowing who your target is hitting and what your focus target is doing will help you to call out predictable mechanics, swap targets when necessary and be situationally aware of what is about to happen next.

1.13 How Taunt Functions

The taunt ability has a really simple mechanic that dictates how it works. Every enemy has a threat meter, which dictates who they will attack, the highest person on their individual threat meter will always be their target. Threat is generated via dealing damage and healing, and some abilities generate threat on higher multipliers than others. Taunting a target will instantly generate threat for you equal to the highest person on the target’s threat meter, plus an extra 10%, as well as forcing the target to attack you for the next 6 seconds. As such, if you are passed on the threat meter after this 6 seconds has elapsed, the target will return back to attacking the highest person on the threat meter. Taunting while you already have aggro will simply give you an extra 10% of your own threat. Keep in mind that the extra 10% threat generation is applied upon using the taunt, and regular threat generation continues accumulating for the duration of the taunt’s effect, so although taunt will give you an edge in threat, if the highest amount of threat on the boss is only low, then the 10% extra that you will gain is not particularly substantial. Because of this, especially early on in fights and during aggro drop mechanics, taunt is not a substitute for good initial threat generation through a proper rotation.

Asking dps to slow down at the start of a fight so that you can maintain aggro is something that will significantly hold back both your group’s dps as well as your own threat. Guarding two of your best dps is generally the best course of action, as it will minimise the chances that they will be able to catch up to you after your initial taunt rotation, but asking them to slow their dps is counterintuitive, as if they are dealing less damage then you can only taunt off of yourself, and as such may actually gain less initial threat. Due to the mechanics of taunt, you should be holding your initial taunts for a few GCDs to ensure that as much threat is built up as possible before you need to use it, and should a dps pull aggro from you that would be an ideal time to taunt. Immediately following this the dps should use their threat drop, so that you gain as much threat as possible, while they lose as much as possible and therefore the gap between the two of you is significantly increased

AoE taunt functions in the same way, and affects each target individually. Because each enemy has their own individual threat meter, each threat calculation is done separately, meaning that an initial AoE taunt on a fresh group of mobs can easily still lose aggro to healers if you don’t maintain threat on each target using other AoE abilities.

About the Authors

Invinc and Vindrik are both members of <Hatred> on Harbinger, an endgame progression guild with world 3rd clear of Nightmare S&V, World 2nd clear of Nightmare TFB, world 1st speed clear (under 2 hrs) of Nightmare S&V, and numerous server firsts at the 8m level.

Invinc is the guild leader of <Hatred> and mains an operative DPS but plays pretty much every and all classes for operations. He currently leads the parses on operative lethality DPS on multiple boss fights and dummy parses. Also known as Carlenux, Carlenix (sniper), Carlenx (Sorcerer), Pyrotec (Powertech)

Vindrik mains an operative healer and is the raid leader for group B in <Hatred> (World 5th speed clear of Nightmare S&V). He is the former raid leader of <Notorious Synergy> on Dalborra, one of the world top guilds pre-2.0 (World 4th).

While the information here are mostly written by these two players, numerous other Hatred raid members and guides were consulted. Questions, comments, concerns will be answered by Invinc, who goes by the name of Carlos Eduardo Mata in the comments section below.

By Dulfy

MMO guide writer and blogger. Currently playing and covering SWTOR, GW2, and TSW.

84 replies on “SWTOR Immortal Juggernaut Tanking Class Guide”

These are good guides and I really hope the popularity of this site gets people to learn their class better. I do have some points to nitpick on though, because I really want to see these guides be accurate.

My biggest problem with this guide is how much it undervalues Ravage. The last tick of Ravage gives threat equal to or higher than a Crushing Blow. Because of this Ravage should be used on the pull, the trick is to burn a taunt (always know if the fight will allow this though) right before you Ravage as losing aggro during a Ravage is worst case scenario.

For specs, Vicious Retaliation is the worst skill in the Immortal tree. It only applies to when Saber Ward is up, and its effect is only to do more damage. Those 2 points are better put into Warmonger (my choice), Thrown Gauntlet, or Rule of Two depending on play style.

It should also be mentioned that Force Push resets the cooldown on Force Charge, giving you two consecutive jumps on demand. Because of this effect I would never recommend using Force Push in rotation.

Sweeping Slash is completely missing from this page and that’s a mistake. By spec it does increased threat and only costs 2 Rage. This means in between cycles of Smash + Crushing Blow for AOE, you can actually sit there spamming Sweeping Slash. The resource cost is much better than Sin’s Lacerate and PT’s Flame Sweep, and the damage is better than Lacerate as well. On my AOE pulls Sweeping Slash will come out to be over 60% of my damage dealt, and that’s with keeping Smash and Crushing Blow on cooldown.

Force Choke does decent damage and builds rage, but its damage/threat is not instant enough to be used that early in the opener (should be used once you’ve rage starved yourself at the end of the opener). The opener I suggest is Saber Throw > Jump > Crushing Blow > Enrage + Retaliation + Force Scream > Backhand > Taunt + Ravage > Smash > Sunder then CB and FS when they’re off cooldown. The trick to the opener is spike threat (leading with Crushing Blow), and Rage management. The Rage management is done in two parts, Enrage is delayed until after the first hit since an Enrage + Saber Throw + Force Charge will put you at max Rage, meaning you won’t generate any Rage when the boss first hits you. The second part of Rage management is using Force Scream and Smash 6 seconds apart. They are both on a 12 second cooldown, and they both benefit from stacks of Revenge. Spacing those two out by 6 seconds will often lead to a free Force Scream and a free Smash in the same rotation.

Additionally, any single target or AOE opener can be done in easy mode by popping Saber Reflect. This should be done carefully though as it puts a very good cooldown out of use for 1 minute.

Some smaller points: Force Scream has top priority in rotation since Crushing Blow, Retaliation and Smash all apply debuffs/buffs that last longer than the skills cooldown. Force Scream on cooldown will maximize your damage absorbed by it. I wouldn’t bother even listing Enraged Defense on here, it’s very resource intensive, prone to catastrophic threat errors, and only applicable in a very small set of situations where you should blow a cooldown anyways (DG Lightning Field). Endure Pain also calculates its heal backwards, and that works out to healing you for 39% of your health. The 20 seconds it lasts is also an eternity in an operation, and tanks should be proactive about clicking off the debuff once they get high on health again. Finally, there’s a trick to taunts where standing outside of 2 meters on a boss amplifies your threat by 30% instead of 10%.

All around, great job Carl. I know this is a monumental task you’ve taken on and the community really appreciates it.

sup gor, lets go with you now :).

Using ravage in your opener is the worst mistake and most common mistake for any juggernaut that “doesnt know” what they are doing, and is the reason why they had “threat issues” and had to be fixed because people often confuse Higher dmg with Higher threat, first it doesnt generate more threat so its just a heavy hitting ability, also what you say its true, 1 ravage last his the same as a CB, but it takes 2.5 second for that to happen, so no you should never use ravage before other important ability in your rotations and even less waste a taunt just for the use of it. for the opener up there that i wrote that taunts depend on the fight, on a normal fight, i would say the Actual taunt would happen between Retaliation / second Sundering assault, which judging by what you said, is right, Ravage mixed with taunt is the way to go on opener my friend, but it should not be taking priority over the other ability in the opener :S.

ill agree that vicious retaliation is the worst talent, but i dont agree on the fact that not using something that is “useful” to replace with something that is not but looks better is a way to go, reducing 3 second CD for the 12 second duration (or 15 idk if it gets a talent buff) means retaliation has what 1.5 sec CD? considering u parry Everything pretty much with that you have: RT + GCD + RT + GCD + RT + GCD + RT + GCD + RT + GCD + RT + GCD + RT + GCD + RT + GCD 1 retaliation on each GCD (1.5 second CD) correct me if am wrong since i dont have the char right here but almost sure its 4.5 sec CD on it normally, so it is a nice burst… eventually adding 3 RT per saber ward used twice a fight is 6 RT which just by iteslf hits harder than Force Push, now considering a 5 minute fight, you have 6 Force push (60 sec CD) reducing 15 Sec would be:0 – 45 -1.30 -2.15 -3 -3.45 -4.30.. you gain 1 force push vs 6 RT, what is better? maybe 2 FP if fight is 5 min 15… so like i said, replacing a not so useful CD for something that just looks better but is worst, is not good… the use of rule of two is useul on some fights, yet we have never used it not even kiting sunder, but IT IS a good Cd for some stuff, and moving this two points for that on some fights is a good posibility,

the force push in rotation is a must is a dps ability free of cost, otherwise u are contradicting yourself, u say u want to reduce its CD with talents but dont want to use it, there is no boss fight that require 2 jumps in less than 15 second making it useless as well as warmonger, complete waste, maybe usable in 1 fight mechanic…maybe :S.

you opener there has a huge mistake, you didnt use SA or smash, which is a great mistake without arsenal mercs now, you basically wasting armor reduction on the WHOLE group opener, which is like a 600 dps increase on every person, to give a slightly increase in your threat that you shouldnt need, your opener is good if u happen to have an arsenal merc or jug dps which is unlikely, otherwise it is recommended always to start with smash, the only and most important and best utility of any tank in the game is the armor reduction you deploy.

enrage max rage is true, but this opener is dummy proof, on other words, is for everyone, by the time u get hit u probably already used smash on the boss, also wasting 1 rage is not much, regardless using enrage after is better (as u can see the opener from anakyn is not the same as mine) i didnt write the Pro opener, since a pro opener for a no good jug = losing aggro fest, so i just made it skill proof somehow lol :D.

what you say on smash and choke is true when micromanaging, thats why my smash opener has 6 sec difference from my scream :D.

agree on last paragraph and on enraged defense, but it is really useful for off tanking, people that want to be good tanks have to gain advantage of that, otherwise they are not maximizing their utility. as far as endure pain i dont agree with you, you using it as a life saver, this mean when u are at 44-60k hp u just click it off? why, it is not your problem, healers should know, when they see a jug with 60k hp that anything above 44 is extra useless hp, therefor not wasting a heal until it drops under 35k, if u click it off you are just destroying a consistant 16k hp heal that will give your healers a nice time to drop some dps or heal others, if the fight is really hard and you consider the healers wont be able to top u off right after, clicking it off at the end of last 2-3 secs if u are around 40k hp predicting an incoming heavy hitting ability in the nsed 5-6 sec is a must to give healers a warning, also reminding the use of this in mumble is useful.

anyways thx for the feedback, read what i said there and let me know what you think, thx appreciate the comments 😀

I’ll buy into your arguments for a dummy proof opener. Still shouldn’t go to Force Choke that quickly unless you’re rage starved. I’ve been taunting right before my Ravage since 1.4 TFB HM and it’s always back up in time for any necessary tank swaps. Of course any taunt fluffing at the start of a fight requires knowledge of what’s going to happen in the next 30 seconds. You’re right, I’ve never ran without an Arsenal Merc or Jugg DPS. Swap the placement of Smash and Force Scream if you’re responsible for the armor debuff (still lead with Crushing Blow though). Also on your opener you have Smash and Force Scream 4.5 seconds apart, not 6.

I’ll give you two examples regarding the use of Force Push and Warmonger. In HM Brontes, with Warmonger I can jump to the Kephess clone and have my jump ready to get back to Brontes during the Arcing Assault. The points in Warmonger aren’t especially helpful, but I like this higher level of mobility over the other options (and no I never take reduced Force Push CD so I’m not contradicting myself). For Force Push I’ll take you all the way back to NIM Toth and Zorn. When Toth goes into his beserk phase and I get the yellow circle while tanking Zorn, I can Intercede to a melee DPS, place the circle, jump back to Zorn, reset my jump, and then jump to Toth ~5 seconds later on the tank swap. Yes, those are specific examples, but a Jugg’s mobility comes down to jumping to targets. Unlike Sin or PT we don’t get a speed boost, so I find Warmonger and saving a Force Push to be situationally useful. For Warmonger though, those 2 points are really just choosing what I think is the best talent out of 4 very subpar talents.

I guess I wasn’t clear about Endure Pain. Once you are at full health (or close) you should click off Endure Pain, it’s done its job at that point. You don’t want to run the risk of taking another large hit right after you’ve refunded ~12k health from Endure Pain ending. Losing that 12k health when you’re topped off is a lot better than losing it without any control over how much HP you have. A lot can happen in 20 seconds.

To give you an example of this, if you pop Endure Pain when things are bad, a 40k HP tank will heal for 16k. Once topped off at ~51k HP clicking off Endure Pain leaves you with your 40k max HP. If you wait for Endure Pain to come off by itself, you can very likely have that occur at 50% (which is acceptable for healers in high raid damage phases). That 50% HP means you have 25.5 HP when Endure Pain falls off, then refunding the 12k HP leaves you at 13.5k HP, or 34% health. So even letting Endure Pain run off at 50% HP leaves you in a tight spot.
(The difference of 12k and 16k is a weird quirk of Endure Pain where it sometimes calculates backwards, but those numbers are actually taken off of my tank). Basically, Endure Pain has a lot of subtle math going on that the tool tip doesn’t come close to describing.

my bad yeah i took retaliation as part of the GCD and it is not it is 4.5 sec difference, either way i honestly ont believe the talent buff is that much important to delay the use of two fo your most important abilities, armor red + shield.

for your examples on the jump, what u say is right, but u gave 2 examples of really useless utility, the toth zorn is useful but way too complicated you will fuck up more times than u will help when it is a really straightforward mechanic. as far as brontes, you dont need to jump back, as you should aim the kephess / move him back to the boss inbetween GCD that way orbitals + AoE dropped on boss by melee will help on kephess too, i guess yeah it could help if u keep him far, but that is less effective than moving him, beside the fact that it is dead in like 8 secs lol, also even if that wasnt the case, u will have more than time to run back without the need of the jump, maybe it is more of a help to groups that have slower dps or more problem, but i agree those are useful way to use it, still very minimal to be actually worth in my opinion.

the endure pain as u say is really up to preference and fight depending on the mechanic incoming i agree.

also i prefer choke before ravage on opener because ravage is honestly a really bad threat generation ability as far as threat vs time, if you dont have a taunt to back it up, regardless of the last hit, u might and would probably lose it half way thru ravage, eventually if the boss is quick might even lose the last hit or have to trip it, so using the choke before it, will add a “dot” and some threat generation to back up the initial 2 secs until the heavy hitter, think of it like using a corrosive dart before Orbital strike as MM sniper, not having CD while casting OS is a dps lost because you ahve basically nothing going on for 3 sec, and applying after will waste the same GCD as applying before and delaying the orbital strike, considering the long CD 1 GCD wont hurt your number of orbital stikres used, so using choke for more than just “rage” builder is important IMO.

The build provided includes all the necessary skills, the only difference will be where to spend the 2 spare points in the immortal tree (you can choose between vicious retaliation, warmonger or rule of two, all equally non-essential skills). Another preference is taking accuracy or dreadnought, they both make equally trivial differences to performance, and again come down to personal preference.

If the note under the build was expanded a little to indicate the points that can be moved around, it would help new juggs understand the compulsory structure of the build, making clear which skills they can play around with vs the skills that are essential.

The problem with using Sundering Assault too early is that it generates next to zero threat. Thus it creates a window for someone to pull agro when used too early. As both a tank and DPS, I’ve been on both sides of this issue. On my Carnage Marauder I’ll pull off a Juggernaut tank that practically starts with SA (ST>FC>SA>CB seems common amongst many Juggernauts) as I’m hitting going through my burst phase during this time.
I use the same rotation on my Juggernaut tank that Gorthog does as I learned it from him and it works very well. Like him I too have rarely ever run without a Juggernaut DPS or an Arsenal Merc, so the tank being responsible for the armor debuff hasn’t been a real issue.

You’re replying to her post where she clearly states that it’s not 37% Defense but is 37% of your allocation. If using a pool of 2400 then 37% gives you close to 900 (888 actually but close enough to get the point across).

May it be simpler if it was just listed as % to aim for as opposed to % of available stat rating budget? I was confused as well until I read these posts.

Relax the best stats for an average Jugg is:

18 -22 DR -defense rating

36-40 SR -shield rating

30-40 SC -shield chance

I used to rock 21/41/33- APER here 😛 and I could just go in an not die, then with the right relics and cool-downs I am even more OP, also I needed some more BiS 78 gear and to bring that SC to 36 -38 to be really happy.

then again I have had some friends rock 19/38/36 then after cool-downs they would even out in stats and get really OP.

Thanks to all my guilds and guildes in the past year who helped me become a great tank and learn all the fights of every boss and operation. It was fun and to quit playing was hard at first but I still get to help people on Dulfy’s sit LMAO.
A special thanks to the best guild of all time still miss our SnV HM runs, thanks for the good laughs and great runs.


we actually click my brother and i, but regardless of that, i find WAY easier for video tutorial / explanation to click that way you can see what i am using instead of trying to guess from CD or animations, but for the record, we do click, all the time except for few abilities depending on the class.

With respect to all your success and ability (and that of some other highly proficient clickers I know), the realisation that you’re a clicker honestly made me sad.

On the flip side, I can imagine plenty of raid leaders saying something along the lines of “… and he’s a (bleeping) clicker, what’s your excuse!?”

i wont blame you, some people dont like clickers for w/e reason is an stereotype, ive spent my time arguing this long time to a point with i dont care what people think 🙂 lol, being a clicker is way harder, however just because something is harder doesnt mean its worst, you just need certain skills in my opinion that are not the usual skills for computer players AKA geeks like us :P, but before i was a geek i used to be really good as spots (so was is my brother) i used to pitch, play baseball and basketball , and probably my/our most important skills (we were way better than average people, however far behind to be considered good enough for semi-professional, i was getting scouted for baseball but never really cared much to “pratice” i am a lazy asshole) anyways, most important skills were: quick reaction, reflexes and anticipation, by far things in my opinion are some of the most important things on a clicker.

reflexes, u need to have above average and trained reflexes (pitching and baseball does great with this) i dont see my quickbars when i click them, neither i see the boss fight, i am watching both scenes, is weird to describe, but i wont miss a CD count neither will i miss a mechanic (most of the time, like anyone), if i wanted to explain you, i wouldnt be able to or u wouldnt understand.

quick reaction, pretty much self explained, you dont only need to react quicker while clicking, but better and more accurate to not miss click, u have to use tab target perfect, and by able to mix some keybinds (like CDs and stuff) to optimize it.

Anticipation probably the most important for tank and healer, to anticipate mecahnics, dmg dealt, GCD, and CD faster than usual so you dont miss in between GCD thinking “should i force scream or crsuhing blow” that decision has to be done quick because mouse is slower than keybind.

on the other side i am terribl with memory, i cant memorize all my 6 chars keybinds, i fuck up, i cant do it just cant, so had to use my strong points instead of the weak flaws in my personal skills to perform better, and unfortunately none of those skills i consider useful for clicking, are usual “skills” a person would have just from playing computer all day, and even with playing sports most dont have really accurate senses for this stuff :s making majority of people “clicking” really bad.

however i dont blame u if u dont like it is just our style, for example go watch the PT tank guide, my tanked thrasher fight, thats perfect, thats a perfect fight there, that was my best skilled time clicking, by far, i am worse now without much practice, even now when i see the video i am scared every single shit i click i will missclick as it feels like if i was just moving that shit around every where not knowing what to do lol, but the fight is flawless in every aspect that even surprises me when i see it, go watch it on the PT guide since this HM fights are so easy, it just seems like clicking for dummies so slow and easy :P.

I’m with gorthog on the value of vicious retaliation. yes it allows for retaliation spam with barricade up, but barricade is too valuable a CD to even think about popping for a quick dps boost.

also, imo (and I know I’m in a minority on this) sonic wall is a waste of points. the defense it offers is small and wears off pretty quick. besides, it’s tied to an aoe taunt that should have pulled all enemy dps to the tank for most of the duration of the shield, making sonic wall kind of redundant. those points are really much better spent on thrown gauntlet. force push has a 10m range and is far more effective at giving a group member a breather if they are in trouble.

instead of going for more accuracy from vengeance tree, get strangulate in the rage tree. the same reason I used for thrown gauntlet applies here, only more strongly. thanks to force grip, choke becomes one of your most usefull attacks. the 10m range allows for a little help with the dps’ers. even if they aren’t in trouble, you basically hold their target up and helpless for a few seconds, while building rage, sometimes cutting off a high dmg channeled attack, and usually without having to move from where you’re holding the boss or mob. also, reducing the cd of backhand and choke is wise because it offers the tank another pair of interrupts against most non-boss targets. in getting to strangulate, the 6% boost to crit chance is a better spend of points than 3% acc boost, since choke, scream, push, charge, and smash are all force attacks. and decimate is a must because it lowers the cd on smash which is one of your major threat builders thanks to single saber mastery. smash should always be used early in your rotation and then every time it’s up after that.

lastly, a note on saber reflect and force charge. it is wise to learn your mobs. a lot of ranged mobs open with aoe’s or cones. saber reflect does nothing against these attacks. after that they usually go for the single target attacks. on these mobs you want to get in and build threat so the mobs focuses on you, and wait for the single target stuff to start b4 popping saber reflect. I absolutely love watching all the incoming dmg bounced right back at the mobs 😀 about force charge, learn which enemies use a kb early and don’t charge them. saber throw as you run in and when they hit you with that kb, then you have charge ready to get right back in their face. very helpful with early threat generation. here’s the build I use when I’m on my jugg. everyone’s playstyle is different, and really this is just nitpicking around the edges, but variety is everything 😀

erg… tired. instead of, “…reducing the cd of backhand and choke is wise because …” I should have written ‘push and choke.’ derp ;p

everything you say here is somehow correct, but ill give you my point of view on why i believe you might be a little bit wrong, and different from the other two tank guides which are my alts, juggernaut is actually my brother main and only char since release and has been our main tank always and he wrote this :D:

first, the shield from AoE taunt is a great mistake if u dont grab it, you are really underestimating their utility. let me put a few examples on this:
NiM SaV:
First boss: AoE taunt while grabing shield on transition, shield on everyone plus people getting lost.
Titan 6: AoE taunt on top of probes with either half the group around you or the whole group if your main tank holds his taunt after that, it will affect main tank too.
Trasher: Either using before the punt up or during the air, will shield up your healer and 2 dps up there that is great help considering snipers spike dmg, using downstairs is useful as well, when he starts screaming, u use it near the group, he wont turn until after 3 seconds so it will shield them while scream happens.
Puzzle boss: at any points since you rarely leave two mobs together, however u can move back few steps for AoE taunt your target and hit friendly to hold aggro.
Warlods: Usable anywhere, any time you want, chuk and sunder are spread far away, so regardless of who/which phase u tanking, using it on CD to shield peopel that are taking dmg is a huge help.
Styrak: Used during Spines, used during 1st transition lightning, using ass offtank during Lightning / exploision, Used on burn phase of kell drake when tank swaping for the AoE dmg.

first boss is stupid wont count it.
Dread guards NiM (pre nerf) Drop it on the group before moving to position during p1 Explosion. Used on group on P2 when swaping for choke from ciphas since you are sure melee + 1 ranged at least are around. P3 after getting the healing debuff while waitting run to the mid AoE taunt your ranged.
Operator: anytime in p2 before or after delition.
Kephess NiM: during Fire cone on pillar, if main tanking usable on top of people for shielding nanites, on burn phase (no threat table).
TFB: in p 1 it will hit both your 2 people stacked on tentacle.

and i can keep going with DF and DP but its hm so no point, you are really underestimating the power of a 2-4k shield idk how much should be around there, on 4-8 targets… it is healing done, done by the tank, this gudies are for boss fights, so push doesnt affect them neither does choke, so specing on utility for trash is a waste.

Reducing the CD on choke by 15 sec from its long CD and lame dmg, is a waste, again its for boss fights, u cant never choke thru boss immunity.
the 6% str and crit buff are debatable, but for the job you want, lacks behind the utility of the accuracy. First 6%str from your low str on low hitting attack is a rly small dps and threat buff, also 6% crit from a 20% crit chance with 51% surge is kind of useless too, considering the fact that only 2 attacks from your short CD rotation use it and your surge is not high enough for you to gain real benefit from it.
now 3% accuracy has to be seen like this, Miss CB, lost threat, lost dmg, miss Force scream Lost Threat lost dmg, Miss force choke Lost threat dmg and rage generation. Missing 1 ability = 2-4k dmg lost… missing 3% less of your attacks will give you higher chance to not miss an ability on the opener or during Burst as well as eventually be a 10-15k dmg increase since miss = 0 dmg.

saber reflect you are right u have to learn your bosses, but it also really confusing, the tooltip say something that is not true, variety of “AoE” attacks are reflected by saber reflect. for example NiM Trasher scream, or 4th boss DF Missile Launch (it is AoE but the it single target dmg so it can create confusion) so saber reflect has to be tested on different stuff to give it a try, also considering its dmg buff and threat buff, some attacks that might seem AoE are often single target for the use of saber reflect :).
the force charge tip is useful too, but thats for trash or fp, boss fights dont do that, well majority dont, not that i remember one right now, so its a good tip actually but really hard to use on a boss :S.

anyways thats are the flaws that i believe in your comments up there, read it and let me know what u think thanks!

I understand what u mean better now. I havn’t tanked anything higher than EC HM cause I fell in love with my commando around the time makeb dropped. I found that with slight changes to mods and enhancements from the standard class gear set up, I can freely respec between heals and dps which gets me into and through more raids 😀
these days almost all the tanking I do is FP, dailies, and pvp. I guess that shows in my build and my approach. I do still tank pugs for the classic ops weekly and imo, trash is where so many of those go wrong. It’s sadly funny when an over geared group melts the puzzle boss in KP with almost no communication, then wipes on the trash behind him cause people break cc’s almost as soon as they are put up 🙁 thanks for the tips on higher lvl bosses. guess i’ll have to respec and give things a try.

I would relabel the section called “How Taunt Functions” to “Threat Mechanics” and describe not only how taunts function, but how aggro is established and how aggro swapping occurs under “normal” circumstances (ie non-random aggro drop, target swapping bosses or mobs).

Threat mechanics nor taunt functionality is entirely as you describe. First, taunts don’t give 110% of the current aggro target’s threat under all circumstances. It is affected by range, ie if you are outside of melee range, you actually get 130% of the current aggro target’s threat. This ties into how threat switching mechanics work. To pull aggro within melee range, you only need 110% of the current aggro target’s threat while outside melee range you need 130%. So one way to maximize the threat multiplying effect of taunts is to ensure you taunt outside of melee range.

Melee range for threat is different from melee range for abilities. Melee range for abilities appears to be 4m from the edge of the target’s hit box, while for threat it is 4m from the center. Under these conditions, most boss fights actually occur outside melee range from a threat perspective due to the massive size / hit boxes they have.

One of the other things I would also add is a discussion of guard functionality including common misconceptions. I constantly hear that the PvP damage redirection mechanic as an excuse for not guarding in PvE and that is flat out wrong.

thanks very much for the feedback that is actually true and accurate numbers, but let me try to explain our position on how to simplify the explanation 🙂 :
what u say is right, but there are 2 missconceptions that will happen to “average” or new tanks if we add the real explanation, first they would think “before pull ill just drop my Taunt and jump in” which even if the difference is not THAT much, will totally mess up their taunt rotation. Also it would open the discussion on “should i let the target go off 10 M from me to taunt? how can i do this on a boss fight? should i ask off tank to taunt, illl run 30M taunt and jump back?” this were all the Questions we had when trying to explain the range difference. and we figured out the problem with taunt is not that, because you rarely even think on that in a boss fight, when u lose aggro you taunt, is not much harder than that, the real problem with taunt is what is explained there (in our opinion) that tanks believe that, the 6 second taunt debuff will force you to be 110%/130% threat Above 2nd place During and AFTER its done, which is false, it jsut forces you to attack and the Threat chance happens on Second 0 of ability activation. Also people often consider dps slowing their dps is a way to hold aggro and as we know as good tanks it is not and explained up there how to exploit it.

anyways your comment is really accurate and ir correct, if we get more comments on people actually getting confused by this we will edit it adding the complete explanation.

the guard part is a nice touch too thx

When did shield and absorb become so important to the Jugg? This was a defense heavy tank class that now seems to need almost as much shield?

defense got nerfed few patches ago, now it is important but not by much, considering u have over 23% with CB proc. in order to reduce spikeyness from jug u want to have higher shield and decent absorb to keep it a bit more steady than ssin comparable to PT tank.

Thanks – one other thing. One your right cast bar what is that ability in the bottom left corner; the circular looking one?

Very good guides of you guys. Well structured and with the perfect amount of informations, not too much and not too less.
Would like to read from you guys about the missing classes and skilltrees 😉

Really like the guides so far. Nice work. Small suggestion from a lazy bum like me would be to put the all the AC-scores in a tank-dps-heals overview to easily compare the different classes/trees. I would also suggest to all players to try different skilltrees as respeccing can be very usefull in between bossfights depending i.e. on the need for more aoe or single target dps.
Looking for forward to the other guides.

Ya that overall comparison is part of a larger overview/starter guide we have not published yet. will publish it after all the class guides are done so i can link them properly 🙂

Must Have** Accuracy: 104% Force – 94% melee (1% from companion + 3% from talent = 0% from Gear)

Immortal Jugg here IMO the 94% Melee Accuracy is useless and you would be better off spending that points on the extra Strength

some people have given this same opinion, there are a few other comments that have this discussion going if u want to read them :D.

Choosing to take the 2% accuracy over Dreadnaught is baffling to me. There is no explanation as to why this is done, and this is first time I have ever seen this happen in a Jugg spec. The other thing that confuses me is it is recommended that the Jugg do as much DPS as possible to help with enrage timers and overall threat generation. You will do more taking Dreadnaught over the 2% accuracy. I know this because I’ve personally tested it multiple times.

One other thing that I personally recommend is using power crystals over Endurance crystals. Neither add or take away from mitigation, but I have noticed an average increase in DPS by 88 when using two power crystals. In the long run, 820 health makes little difference.

that is interesting, but yeah works that way for all tank, 820 is a small difference, so is 1.5k and 3k but it is still something u might want to survive a hit, while 88 dps (dependent on fight and how much uptime of dps on boss) is not that much, but still high enough, would have to give proper tst because it seems really awkward that 82 power = 16.4 bonus dmg, actually gives you 88 dps increase, but an option for gearing on certain fights.

overall threat generation is done after few taunts in a fight, so its just an average, the thing with Acc vs str, is it is purely RNG, that said, you can have more dsp overall with 6% str, but 3% rng can help you in critic situation, for example if u miss 2straight attacks while getting aggro of a freshly spawned boss for example kell drake in last phase of styrak in sav nim title run, can destroy your threat, further reduce your dmg more than u wanted to, and might cause a wipe, so it is really hard to measure the real increase of 6% str vs 3% acc, since its purely chance, 3% chance can be the difference between hitting or not something u want to hit or need to hit on an specific critical time, while 6% str wont help u on that, so i am more a fan of keeping the RNG to the minimum.

i just did test myself, sonic barrier = str not dmg, so crit doesnt affect it for people that say crit dmg for it, now as far as 6% str difference in a full BiS 178 gear (armor reduction doesnt affect either),… without the talent 1598-1599 absorb, with talent 1623-1624 … a 25 Difference, now it is something, considering 12 sec CD plus second 0 / 300 seconds, you get like 25-26 uses * 25 = 625-650 extra dmg absorbed thru the whole fight, its not much but it is indeed some. however this small increase of mitigation, would make you lose probably dps, because the str increase would need a lot of attacks to make up for 1 ability missed from the 2% difference, however you can miss armor reduction causing your group to lose dps, anyways all these is so minimal that is basically up to preference.

I hope someone san help me put. I don’t know how to spend points at start. Should I go all for Immortal first or mix it?

IMO, you want to get to your signature ability (crushing blow) as soon as possible, so going full immortal then using your remaining points in the other trees as you get them. The reason you want Crushing Blow is because it gives you the damage reduction buff and is key to your aoe threat generation.

If you use the tree provided, I’d go up the Immortal tree then the lowest tier of vengeance, then lowest of focus, then get the 2nd tier of vengeance.

A few things:

You don’t mention anywhere that Saber Ward’s passive “Blade Turning” is currently bugged while wearing the set bonus PVE gear for Juggernaut tanks. You know, the one where it increases it by a second to a total of three seconds for the 2-set and the 4-set provides a 20% increase to Sonic Barrier. It’s important to let people know that they can’t rely on that passive.

You mention trading Decimate for Ro2. While I would highly agree that Ro2 is amazing, I would never give up Decimate for it. Decimate provides too much threat to get rid of with the 20% increase of damage and the cool down reduction from 15 seconds to 12. I would instead trade out Vicious Retaliation, due to how very little that talent would actually be used to half it’s full potential.

Invincible is on par with Saber Ward, where you say it’s poor in comparison is kind of weird. Saber Ward grants a large amount of defense and mitigation, but it’s still a dice roll. It’s a great dice roll, but that doesn’t make it anything more than a dice roll. Invincible is pure mitigation. Don’t underestimate it.

The comments made about Ravage baffle me. Yes, it’s a “3-second” channel (above you mention cutting it 2.5-2.8 seconds when the damage hits, so theoretically it’s less than 2 globals). The first two ticks of Ravage are below one critical Crushing Blow if both ticks of ravage do not crit. The moment they crit, they actually are higher threat than one CB crit. That’s not even including the final tick of Ravage, which is on par with a CB. It’s stunning that people are saying to not throw Ravage when its a) free b) heavy hitting and heavy threat and c) free.

Lastly, looking at the comments, in my personal opinion the 2% accuracy is leaps and bounds better than the 6% strength increase. Your job as a tank is to hold the boss and make the encounter incredibly simple for the rest of your ops group. Tank dps comes with you tanking, it’s not the #1 priority. I’ve had too many cases where the boss resisted one of my opening moves when I ran different skill trees that lacked points in the accuracy talent. Bosses love to cleave the moment they turn, and moments like that put incredible amounts of stress on the healers so early on in a fight. Long story short, always take the accuracy talent.

Your friendly neighborhood Juggernaut Tank,
Puddlezz – Bastion

I agree with Decimate, it’s non-negotiable and essential in all builds. I don’t think you can put points from Vicious Retaliation into Rule of Two because of the lower tier point requirement, but you can move the points from Sonic Wall to Rule of Two if it’s an encounter where you can take advantage of the speed boost. Vicious Retaliation only has Warmonger to compete with for points, which I prefer personally, but both skills are for flavour.

Strength vs Accuracy is not build defining in any way. Strength gives you more threat and increases your sonic barrier absorb, while Accuracy reduces the chance your attacks will miss or be resisted by 3% (this also includes interrupt and force push). The reason a lot of juggs go for Strength is because with no accuracy rating at all, even with the Accuracy talent your attacks will still miss and be resisted anyway, while Strength at least always provides its benefit to threat and mitigation. Also, Dreadnought is only 2 skill points, so you can pick up 1% accuracy and 6% increase in Strength instead of just 3% accuracy for those same 3 points.

If there is an encounter where you can’t afford to have your force push or interrupt be resisted, you should take the accuracy. For everything else: 2/2 Dreadnought with 1 point in Accuracy is a more efficient use of those 3 skill points. Overall it really makes little difference either way.

You can put the Vicious Retaliation points into Rule of Two. You’re able to get out of the 2nd tier by having everything in the first tier then the Armor talent point and the 2 points in Retaliation.

As for Strength vs Accuracy, you are correct that 6% strength will increase your sonic barrier, but it’s such a low increase that it’s barely noticeable. Even by going 1% acc and 6% strength, that 2% of accuracy missing is highly noticeable. Anyway though, it is totally personal preference at that point.

Your friendly neighborhood Juggernaut Tank,
Puddlezz – Bastion

blade turning bug yeah its true, however its a bug and will be fixed, same with cheesing mechanics, it is something that should not be in a guide IMO, neither i added relic healing exploit on dps guides, because that is not how the class / tooltip works :(.

the decimate you are right, i was mistaken there after i took a closer look.

ravage is really unreliable GCD for threat, using it for high burst when the rest is on CD for threat and high dmg is a must, however being a 3 second / 3 hits attack, gives you 3x times to miss first, which would destroy the “heavy threat” part if missing on last hit, you just wasted 3 seconds on nothing, also it doesnt generate any buff so no reason using before CB or FS or retaliation and their threat/dmg is just as high or higher when comparing the duration + threat.
also main problem with ravage is that, regardless of the high threat in the last hit, you are open to losing boss in the first2 sec, either from a mara or ranged, often making u cancel the channel, the channel or waste it, eventually if u miss that last hit u just wasted your time, so it is kind of unreliable.

agree on the rest :).

In regards to the bug, I know it will be fixed, but that’s been there since 2.0 came out and the more it’s out there the faster it’ll get fixed.

In regards to Ravage, I never actually said to Ravage before CB or FS. In my post I was only conveying the message that Ravage does a great deal of threat by comparing it to CB. That was all. My opening rotation is Enrage, Leap, Smash, Retaliate if able, Crushing Blow + Retaliate (if wasn’t used before CB), Force Scream, Activate Saber Reflect + Ravage, Backhand *end opening* -> normal rotation.

That is my opening for Suckafish’s raids. They don’t pull off of me, and they are some of the absolute best dps in this game.

Final note: I never interrupt my Ravage. That my friend, is heresy. 🙂

yeah i know hopefully it get fixed soon as it is really annoying.

oh my bad i thought u were referring to other comments where people comment to use ravage before those in the opener for “max” threat where i dissagree.

your rotation seems good, anyways if you dont want to use saber reflect on the opener to save for CD for example Thrasher nim fight, u should move backhand + Ravage, that way generating more threat right away in my opinion.

I could go on a completely new tangent/rampage about the Backhand ability in general. I’m actually really not a fan of it whatsoever. It was useful Pre2.0, but ever since it just feels like it didn’t receive any love with the expansion while everything else builds more threat.

The SR is honestly just frosting on top of the cake in terms of threat. Pre2.0 I started tanking with both an armor adrenal and a crit adrenal. I hit the crit adrenal as I leap in 🙂

agree on both, backhand should have a higher multiplier for threat or get its dmg back up, as its good but not that good, however due to the long CD and quick threat i give it an edge against the rest not CB.

SR yeah that make sense, and lol crit adrenal? why not power? too mainstream :P?

Backhand is the only Jugg ability with a 300% threat modifier. Crushing Blow gets 250% modifier, Smash and Sweeping Slash get 230%.

Off the top of my head only Backhand and Wither have the 300% modifier, and the PT’s cylinder dot has a ~600% modifier. So the end result makes Backhand quite useful for snapping threat, especially since it’s resource neutral.

Edit: I totally forgot to mention that pulling with Saber Throw in my humble opinion is a waste of a GCD. There’s a different opening rotation that provides much higher threat than what yours is capable of. Also, if anyone follows KBN’s “stat budget guide” they will find themselves getting chunked. A lot. There’s better ways to stat Juggernaut tanks.

The guide is very thorough and seems to have taken a great deal of your time putting it together. I do applaud you there. New players to the class will appreciate this.

Your friendly neighborhood Juggernaut Tank,
Puddlezz – Bastion

Hmm. Now that I read your post on my class, I decided to look around. Please take down the comment about how Sentinel/Marauder Force Camo only drops threat when the boss looks at them. My progression Marauder loves how his aggro to bosses is in the negative millions by the time a fight is over due to hitting Camo on CD. The bosses never look at him, he just hits it as part of his rotation. Your site is often looked at, please don’t misconstrue to the public how Force Camo, or any mechanic for that matter, works.

Quote from

“‘It Wasn’t Me’ Threat Drop (Force Camouflage):
Marauders | Sentinels don’t have access to a standard threat reduction
ability. Instead, they have a more powerful threat drop that will drop
their threat entirely, however only works for enemies who are targeting
them when it’s activated. Because of this, using Force Camouflage as a
conventional threat drop is worthless, and it should instead be saved
for emergencies when you pull aggro and the tank cannot instantly taunt.”

Your friendly neighborhood Juggernaut Tank,

Puddlezz – Bastion

the way it work is interesting, but unfortunately you must give things proper try before calling someone “liar” or giving wrong information, let me show you:

you will need to go to Log then Ctr + F and type down “camouflage”

camo on dummy, hes not targeting you
no threat.

camo on a full group pulled by me alone threat drop

camo on a group pulled by dulfy, i had initial threat on group (first targeted me) then on dulfy… threat drop on all

dulfy pulled, they never saw me, all group was alive, i had threat on 1 of them.. only 1 threat drop

dulfy pulled and had aggro, boss never targeted me… no threat drop.

Same mob, i pulled at the beggining, dulfy gained aggro after (during Camo), it dropped threat

Same mob, dulfy had aggro, i gained aggro, she took it after, mob saw me, however was not the actual target.

pulled an elite, dulfy pulled him, had initial aggro, i didnt attack, i let it hit me with an “AOE” ability, he never targeted me… no threat drop

Dulfy pulled, she had aggro, i took AoE dmg AND stole aggro after, he targeted me, dropped threat.

last one, first cmouflage, dulfy pulled i took the AoE dmg, he never targeted me, no threat drop
second camouflage, i stole aggro from him, he targeted me, i force camo, threat dropped

so yeah the information says, it has to be targeting you, thats a typo, it has to HAVE targeted you at any point…. Boss fights often have mechanics where boss would AoE dmg or aoE debuff or some kind and will often target you, some have this, most of them, this is why it happens in raids, however the ability doesnt work as you say..

theres a reason why force camo doesnt work like force cloak or the other kinds, because it is different, camo and op vanish drop you from combat, 100% threat lost, in other words it is not negative, it is reduced to 0, you will start from scratch after doing that being overpowered as well as leaving u out of combat to refresh certain stuff like medpac or exploit recklessness on assassin, while force camo when it works, does the same effect, however it doesnt refresh your threat to 0 because u never drop combat, instead of that it has “apparently” a really high formula that decreases its threat with negative points, to make sure your you wont steal aggro anytime soon to be just like force cloak.

compare with a operative log, the one from my other raid night, go to the log and Find Cloaking Screen,
it doesnt drop threat, it Drops from combat / gains stealth / enter combat, however this doesnt reduce threat, it just vanish you from the threat table, u go from 165465132 threat u had, to “dead”, exit combat, 0, your next attack will be 0 + X threat, often putting you on the bottom of the list, so in order for camo to be just as good the threat reduced has a formula that reduce it by an incredibly high amount, but doesnt drop u from combat, and target has to have had targeted you at some point of the fight to work. force camo if you was targeted at some point will go from 250k threat – 1.5 mil threat… eventually being in -1.250.000 threat, all the threat u gain after that will be -1.250.000 + X Threat basically making it impossible for you to steal aggro ever again and giving you that awkward negative threat numbers. BUT boss or whatever had to have targeted you at any point, from any mechanics, or thanks to any ability that forces the boss to target you, otherwise it doesn’t work.

so your comment really came as really “disrespectful” and in a rude way, so i please ask you to ask your marauder friend to read his own log and try by himself before saying stuff that are wrong, because this is what happens. 🙂

thanks anyways for the note regardless of the way u approached, it is appreciated.

In no way did I intend on coming across as disrespectful to you or your site. I only meant to bring to your attention that piece of information seemed to be misinterpreted and should be fixed due to the wide audience your site meets.

Honestly, I was trying to be helpful in pointing out something that, while small, is false and should be corrected to prevent misconstruing the information further, whether it is a small or large piece of information.

I am happy you provided so many logs from torparse for me to view and see your viewpoint. However, when it comes to this specific force camo discussion, I regretfully want to inform you that the torparse coding for force camo is one of it’s flaws. It’s highly unreliable to use in any scenario to accurately show just how much threat was lost due to it. This is one of Torparse’s many bugs that we found by using it, and that is one of the reasons we now use Parsec instead. I would recommend starting the switch over to Parsec due to just how vastly better it is than Torparse. Also, none of these are bosses. We’ll get to that in a bit.

You admit in your own comment that it was a typo. That’s all I was asking for was to update your post on Force Camo.

Your logs are on either dummies or in open world environments. That is a completely different environment than say Nefra’s Courtyard. I was specifically referring to BOSS encounters. When your tank pulls a boss, it doesn’t matter if you’re a healer sitting in the far back, or any of the dps who haven’t done a single thing yet. Once a boss is engaged you are put into combat with said boss. That being said, the boss never, ever has to look or hit you, for camo to drop threat.

I never claimed it dropped you from combat, so I’m unsure why you mentioned the operative/assassin cloaking ability. Nor am I following where you found me disrespectful. All I said was “please” and “misconstrue” which means misinterpret. Therefore, I don’t understand why you just listed that entire post and claimed I was being rude to you instead of just saying, “Yeah man, we’ll fix that typo. :D”

Have a nice day.

Your friendly neighborhood Juggernaut Tank,
Puddlezz – Bastion

Carl’s first language isn’t english so he may take what you said out of context or misinterpret it. Anyways, thanks for the response. We will take another look at it and edit as necessary 🙂

i understand and yeah what she says :D. oh by no means i meant you “dont” post the helpful information, i just felt it was a bit unfriendly but its fine no problem.

i use parsec, however parsec doesnt have an upload option to it, however using parsec gives the same result:

23:39:21.296 Force Camouflage causes your threat on Sorna Taros to change by -1,367,671
23:39:22.921 You lose Force Camouflage effect

as it doesnt matter what torparse says, its what the log says.

[23:39:21.295] [@Hwynn] [@Hwynn] [Force Camouflage {807741614456832}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Force Camouflage {807741614456832}] ()
[23:39:21.296] [@Hwynn] [Sorna Taros {3267181622067200}:33373015335617] [Force Camouflage {807741614456832}] [Event {836045448945472}: ModifyThreat {836045448945483}] ()

thats the accurate value of it from a force camo.

as far as boss fight you are not understanding the log analysis, on all those logs i am “in combat” the fact is that in combat does not trigger force camo, now this is a different theory that can be analyzed, mine is that boss fights mechanics often causes boss to /target you to use the mechanics on you in the game coding, therefor considering it “useful for camo” but i know nothing about it, there can be another theory for example that every boss fight start would automatically trigger a /target all players upon entering combat, maybe someone that knows the coding could help us with this.

regardless of this that is not how force camo work, as the environment in an operation is the same environment as outside of it, neither there is a difference in environment between trash / boss, so there is no reason as far as threat, to say “random mob is different from boss” because it is not.
and here is why i believe u “might” still be mistaken, you are still considering “enter combat” as your trigger, and that is false, because any coding in the game, boss,dummy,random mob will trigger enter combat, so under your theory whenever i enter combat (that happens on ALL logs, dummy, all examples given up there) would make camouflage works, and it doesnt as proven in the logs, also Receiving dmg doesnt trigger it either, as showed in the AoE example log :), the only way it works is if the targeted /target you at some point, thats why i brought force cloak, because it actually Exit / enter combat which is the mechanic you are referring so if camo worked that way it would have an exit / enter combat.

now i am not saying it does or does not work on every boss fight, because like i said, i am not aware of the game coding if the boss /target you upon enter (all raid members) to AVOID this situation, or if the boss somehow on mechanics /target you like AoE debuff or hits different from other mobs, i have no way to assure this, what i can “almost” assure you, from the tests, is that force camo requires the target to have targeted you, regardless if it is a coding on a boss, a random mob or stealing aggro, the ability “doesnt” take effect on “Enter Combat” unfortunately as it is proven there, it trigger is enemy /target you

thats how it properly works :), and this might be the cases of the many complains of the dmg reduction “bug” or the threat “bug” that happens in boss like TFB DG nim (just a theory) where it was proven the dmg from the p1 explosion transition wasnt mitigated by the 50% reduction, “maybe” because that boss was “different” having random Threat pool, the coding for it might have been different somehow bugging the use of this ability because it was never forced to target you and the dmg reduction requires this too, however this is just random talk on another thing that might be affected by this trigger effect.

bottom line, i dont disagree with you that it works on bosses somehow without being targeted, but not because of what you think, if there is a forced /target upon start or mechanics forces boss to target you, i dont know that, and wont know that and that “might” be the case of what you say work on boss fights, since i have not tried every single boss fight on pull in the first 1-2 GCD before any mechanic happen to know if it actually drops threat at that point from entering combat boss coding or if if the mechanics forces this to happen.

the reality proven from the example there is that the ability force camouflage regardless of what / where / who you use it, is “not” triggered by:
– Combat start
– Dmg taken from the mob AoE in general.
– Dmg done by you.

it is in my theory, triggered by /target, since once the boss has targeted you for whatever reason once, it will work any time after that, but not before, again it would need anyone to dig up coding to see what works different with bosses or why that happens, but the ability seems to work the way explained there :).

Edit: this is a really good argument, keep it coming i like it :), maybe digging up a bit more we can find the right answer 🙂 however i have not found yet the proof of camouflage Working upon “entering Combat: as u said :S.

The AoE part is new, isn’t it? When you write Vicious Slash you mean Retaliation, don’t you?
Thank you for your great work!

Hey there 🙂
Are there going to be some pvp guides too? I can’t find any guides about absorb/defense/shield stats for pvp 🙁

Sweeping Slash generates more tps per rage than vicious slash. If you encounter fights where your rage pool is often low you should consider using sweeping slash.

I have been stacking Defense on my Juggernaut like mad, and it’s driving me insane. Finding the right mods is extremely difficult, and even with all my stacking I have barely achieved higher than 22%, far shy of 37% which is the apparent goal value. Can I get some advise on how to get that modifier higher, or whether that is a typo? I have yet to meet a Juggernaut Tank with over 30% defensive rating, so it seems like a myth.

Wow… people keep making the same mistake over and over and over and over again… not meant as an insult or attack.
They don’t mention what your defense % should be. The % they show is the amount of your stat budget to allocate to defense. They don’t like to give target percentages and instead give targets as rating.

That makes a lot more sense, and when I read through the stat allocations above, it is clear. Thanks.

ok question, when you approach multiple enemy’s as a tank is there an abilty that draws them all to fire at you or do you just go from one to another taunting and roaring , and is it possible to have your team take no damage or just try and get as much damage your way as possible?

There is no mass pull… you can aoe taunt and saber reflect for multiple targets that are spread out to generate threat, then use crushing blow on highest priority to tank, and smash a group that is bunched up, sweeping slash is much less effective than an sins wither which has greater range + damage reduction

Why do the authors recommend accuracy over strength? Strength influences the absorb of your sonic barrier. So strength = more mitgation + more dps Accuracy = more dps

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