GW2 Feature Build Skill and Balance changes preview

A list of the GW2 skill and balance changes planned for the feature build that will come after the first Living World season ends.

As promised, here is the balance preview for the first feature build that will launch after the first Living World season ends. When reading through these changes please keep in mind the overall scope of the update – rune/sigil and critical damage changes included. The changes listed below are similar to what was mentioned on Ready Up on January 17th.

When posting feedback, please try to abide by the following guidelines:

  • Be constructive. Discuss, don’t argue. If you think a change may cause issues, say why and give examples. Try not to argue with others – make your point and then accept that other people may have different points of view.
  • Give examples: I had 2000 toughness but still got hit by X target for roughly Y damage.
  • Be concise. Our time is limited and we can’t read walls of text because it will prevent us from having the time to read as many posts as possible. Bullet points or numbered lists are very easy for us to read!
  • Be specific. “I expect this change to accomplish A, but I think it will actually accomplish B”. The more specific you are, the better we are able to understand where you’re coming from, what type of content you play, and it helps us to understand the context for your feedback.
  • Be objective. Keep in mind that just because you may not like something, that doesn’t make it bad. Others may have differing opinions. They may play a different type of content, or they may play a different profession, so be objective and keep in mind – we have to balance the game for EVERYONE, not just you.
  • Be respectful. This goes for your fellow community members as well as for devs. Respect the ideas and opinions of others.
  • Be mindful of scope. It takes design, development and testing time in order to make a new feature or revise an old one. Keep scope/work/time/resources in mind when you make your suggestions.
  • Be mindful of context. Power creep is something we’re trying to avoid. Sometimes a profession may not receive as many increases as other classes. A lot of times, this is because that class is already performing very well in the current state of the game. So keep the overall context/state of the game in mind when giving feedback.

Critical Damage:

  • We’re adding a new stat to the game called ferocity which affects your critical damage multiplier, similarly to how precision affects critical chance.
  • All existing percentage critical damage stats on gear and items will be converted into the appropriate amount of ferocity, which will then factor into your critical damage multiplier.
  • We expect that in the most extreme power DPS focused builds this change will account for a maximum reduction of about 10% damage.
  • This change will not affect PvP, as critical damage is already at a much lower value and item attributes will be adjusted in order to compensate for the changes.

Sigils:

  • All sigils now have independent cooldowns, meaning you can use two on-swap sigils, or an on-swap and an on-crit sigil at the same time. You will not, however, be able to use two sigils of the same name at the same time. On-kill sigils that provide attributes, such as Sigil of Corruption, will not be able to be used simultaneously with other attribute modifying on-kill sigils.
  • Two-handed weapons can now be slotted with two sigils.
  • Sigils will receive a general balance pass to bring them more in line with each other.

Runes:

  • Rune sets will receive a general balance pass to bring them in line with each other. This will increase the amount of viable rune options.
  • The bulk of rune set bonuses will be pushed towards the 4th, 5th, and 6th piece bonuses to incentivize using a complete set.

Profession Changes

Elementalist:
Our changes for the elementalist focus on increasing sustain while maintaining the delicate balance between damage and durability. We achieved this by adding more defensive effects to a few main-hand weapon sets.

  • Signet of Restoration: Removed the split on this skill so that the signet passive heal amount will be increased in PvP to match the current PvE amount.
  • Armor of Earth: Reduced recharge from 90 seconds to 75 seconds.
  • Water Trident: Added 3 seconds of regeneration to up to 5 allies in the radius.
  • Burning Speed: This ability now evades attacks.
  • Frozen Burst: This ability is now a blast finisher.

Engineer:
We feel that the engineer is in a decent place right now, but we did take this opportunity to scale down a few outlier skills in terms of potency. Net Turret’s immobilize duration has been lowered to reduce the amount of lockdown after a Supply Crate drop, and Poison Grenade’s poison duration has been lowered to account for poison field stacking.

  • Net Turret: Decreased the immobilize duration from 3 seconds to 2 seconds on the basic attack.
  • Poison Grenade: Reduced the poison duration per pulse from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.
  • Box of Nails: Reduced the cast time from 1 second to 3/4 second.
  • Box of Piranhas: Reduced the cast time from 1 second to 3/4 second.
  • A.E.D.: Reduced the cast time from 1 second to 3/4 second.

Guardian:
We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with low trait point investments. We’ve also made a few minor adjustments to healing skills to make them more reliable.

  • Litany of Wrath: Reduced the cast time from 1 second to 3/4 second.
  • Vigorous Precision: Increased the recharge from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
  • Healing Breeze: This ability has been re-scaled so that the guardian receives 50% of the heal near the start of the heal and then heals for 10% for 5 ticks to the caster and up to 5 allies in the cone.

Mesmer:
We’re continuing to lower the amount of vigor available to all professions, especially from sources with low trait point investments. Based on your feedback, we decided to revert our proposed change to Deceptive Evasion.

  • Critical Infusion: Increased the recharge from 5 seconds to 10 seconds.
  • Illusion of Drowning: Changed skill from a multi-hit to a single-hit, increasing damage to compensate.

Necromancer:
One of our goals with the past few balance updates has been to add counterplay to various skills that lacked telegraphs. With necromancer, we’re changing the way that Dhuumfire is activated – allowing players the opportunity to react. This will also allow the necromancer to carefully plan their burning application. We’ve also adjusted some values for Minion Master builds based on player feedback.

  • Putrid Explosion: This ability is no longer unblockable.
  • Training of the Master: Reduced the damage increase to minions from 30% to 25%.
  • Dhuumfire: This trait has been changed so that it will make Life Blast inflict 3 seconds of burning with a 10 second recharge.
  • Vampiric Master: Reduced the effectiveness of this trait by 10%. The healing portion of this trait will now scale with the necromancer’s healing power stat.

Ranger:
We’re going to be fixing a bug with Spirit of Nature that caused it to have an incorrect healing power value. We’re also looking at adding combo fields to existing abilities to allow for more play through different combo finishers.

  • Spirit of Nature: Reduced the healing per second while summoned from 480 to 320.
  • Viper’s Nest: This ability is now a poison combo field.

Warrior:
Our changes for warrior focus on providing telegraphs to stronger skills and to reduce the passive benefit gained from Healing Signet.

  • Healing Signet: Reduced the passive heal by 8%.
    • We’re looking for ways to incentivize using Healing Signet’s active without increasing overall sustain. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
  • Pin Down: Added a telegraph animation to the skill. Increased the cast time from 1/4 second to 3/4 second.

Source: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/balance/Feature-Build-Balance-Preview/first#post3568078

  • Raistlin

    I’d really like to know WHEN they will fix the ranger 1H-sword. Like it is now, it’s just not really an option, because you can’t dodge. Just hope for Aegis, Protection, your “kill my pet instead of me”-skill or that you have the chance to actually dodge when you press it

    • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

      They said that it was one of the bug fixes for ranger in the livestream from a week or 2 back.

      • Sina

        Yes, but JonPeters said it might not make it for the next balance patch. (and if the past is of any indication “might not” always means “not” for him)

        • Raistlin

          They already mentioned it would be a part of the december patch, but guess what? nope, who cares about rangers anyway, right?

          • Deviija

            Nope, no one does.

    • Xsorus .

      Wait…Ranger’s best weapon isn’t an option?

      News to me.

      • Sina

        +1

      • Ether_Man

        Best weapon? Well it’s the highest dps… But best overall, is extremely situational… It’s certainly not the best fighting against an opponent close to a ledge, because that gets you killed instantly as an example…

        • Xsorus .

          Don’t Spam auto attack next to a ledge? Certainly don’t have auto attack on, Confusion should of taught everyone that lesson months ago

          • Ether_Man

            I thought I was pretty clear in that noone in their right mind would use the sword at ALL next to a ledge… You have ZERO control over where the forced move of 1-2 and 1-3 will take you, hence you WILL die by using it… And being locked out from basicly the only damage skills on the sword… Means it’s simply not a good weapon to be using in such a position… And confusion isnt a problem for autoattack on any other weapon… It’s just the piss poor design of 1h sword for ranger that has that… No other class has such a mechanic on any weapon…

            • Xsorus .

              You have perfect control on where the 1-2 and 1-3 will take you, It’ll take you in the direction you’re facing towards the enemy, Meaning, Don’t use it next to a cliff when you’re facing the Cliff, and Confusion isn’t a problem for autoattack on any other weapon? Umm Confusion is the reason you turn off Auto Attack on all weapons. If you’ve not turned off auto attack already on every class you play i don’t know what to tell you…Cause you clearly didn’t learn the first time you fought anyone with Confusion.

              • Ether_Man

                Sorry but that’s simply not true… It’s true in theory, but latency makes that ONLY a theory… In reality, you have no control over it… And no sorry, but I rarely take confuse damage on any other weapon, even when using autoattack… You can easily break any other chain on any other weapon… EXCEPT this one… So no sorry… YOU might turn off autoattack… Most people dont and have no problem with it…

              • Xsorus .

                I have perfect control over it, I don’t aim myself towards a cliff when using sword auto attack, and you only take confuse damage if you’re silly enough to leave auto attack on, which i’m starting to guess is what is happening with you.

              • Ether_Man

                That simply is not true… It just isnt… Repeating yourself does not make it true either… The technical theory of the forced move is what you claim, but we are not living in a world where signals are instant… You WILL have a latency, and your move is calculated for where the server thinks your target is, when IT recieves your attack… Which is double your latency ATLEAST (due to how the server updates the position of other players)… That means, that against a moving target, which all targets will be in pvp unless they’re morons, will be, that you have no control because you actually have zero knowledge about where the server will consider your target to be half a second from now… While half a second sounds like a short time to some, in GW2, it allows for movement quite far actually… You can be directed away from a cliff against a target, use the skill, and end up falling off the cliff, because the other played has dodged right through you and you just havnt gotten that information yet and is actually getting that information at the same time as the server sends you your new position, in mid air falling to your death… Your theory assumes a utopia, which Anet has already confirmed was a misstake when they designed the skill that the theory behind it did not really work out in real life… It’s silly to sit and pretend the world works in a way that it simply doesnt.. It doesnt improve the game in any way… Look at the game as how it actually works in real life, rather than in theory… It’s a common misstake, but a misstake nontheless…

              • Xsorus .

                You keep going on about Latency and how the skills work, But i don’t think you quite understand how much your latency would actually have to be for you to get yourself thrown off a cliff by someone dodging through you. Like you would have to be a constant 500+ latency before you even begin to notice it in GW2, and unless you’re playing on Dial Up right now, That’s just not feasible.. Now maybe because my internet is just magnificent I don’t get your plight…But blaming latency on your bad positioning seems rather silly.

              • Ether_Man

                No sorry, but you dont actually need that kind of latency… Even if we assume say a relatively low latency of like 100ms… Then first, your client waits for its next skill send opportunity, which can be anything up to 100ms… Once that is done, it sends it to the server, with the latency delay… That means that the server recieves your message up to 200ms later. Now, the position that you are seeing your opponent, is what your client GUESSES, that your opponent is… The server however, will only update you on their actual position every 100ms, and up to latency delay of you recieving that… So again in reverse.. The position that you see them being at, is actually up to 200ms delayed… Meaning that given 100ms latency, your skill, will actually have up to 400ms positional delay… With 500+ latency, you’re looking at up to 1200ms positional delay… now, 100ms is a fairly common latency… You could have a good connection and get to as low as ~25ms… However, even if we assume there’s zero latency on the serverside then, you’re still looking at a 250ms positional delay then… Lots can happen in fast paced games in a quarter of a second… And again, that’s assuming the server itself has no delays internally… So no, Im not blaming latency in any way, nor do I actually have bad positioning because I simply dont use the weapon in those situations because Im not a friggin noob… We have alternate weapon sets, use them… That does NOT change the fact that you do not actually have any control over where you end up…

              • Xsorus .

                You’re blaming bad positioning on latency by saying you didn’t mean to launch yourself off the cliff…it was lags fault, and 100ms is not a relatively low latency these days…30-40 is.. And GW2 is not a FPS, Its network code is not designed around that, Hence why you don’t start noticing positioning of players until your latency starts getting incredibly high now. In the end you have perfect control where you end up as a Ranger, Long as you’re not facing the cliff you won’t go flying off the Cliff.

              • Ether_Man

                I also gave an example of 25ms, which still gives you 250ms positional latency… Perhaps you should actually read when people explain something to you rather than dismissing it offhand… It’s extremely closed minded to not even read the argument before dismissing it…

              • Xsorus .

                I dismissed your argument because you basically said that Rangers because of lag, Will sometimes shoot themselves backwards off Cliffs if they’re not careful with their 1-2 and 1-3, and as someone who’s used Sword for a very very long time, I can tell you, That in the entire time i’ve played, I’ve never went in a direction I was not facing with that ability. This is because you believe that the Networking protocol of an MMO is remotely similar to an FPS, which its not…If they were, MMO’s would be completely unplayable past 30 ping.

              • Ether_Man

                No.. Quite the contrary actually… So yes you admit to dismissing an argument, you havnt even read… If you have something to say to me, actually read what I’ve written before arguing against your idea of what I’ve said, because your idea of what I’ve said, does not match what I’ve ACTUALLY said…

              • Xsorus .

                I read your argument, I dismissed it because its silly. As for not matching what you said, Let me ask you this, Do you believe the Sword 1-2 and 1-3 will send the Ranger in a direction he his not facing? If no, Then how are you sending yourself flying off the Cliff unless you’re facing yourself towards the cliff…

              • Ether_Man

                Sorry but no I do not believe it will send you in a direction you’re not facing… I KNOW it will under quite a lot of situations due to us not living in a fantasy land where communication over the internet is instant and there’s no action windows in the networking code of GW2… And no you didnt read, because I’ve already explained exactly this to you… It’s also hilarious that you say my argument doesnt match what I’ve said… What I’ve said, IS THE ARGUMENT… There is no argument beyond what I’ve said… Hence, you are deliberately taking an argument I have not said, and claiming that’s my argument… You know what that’s called? It’s a strawman argument… It’s an argumentative fallacy and it’s THE silliest fallacy in existance… It’s even sillier than ad hominem and THAT’s a silly fallacy…

              • Xsorus .

                See, You clearly don’t understand how the ability works. Also, Just for my amusement, What is GW2 using right now UDP or TCP.
                Hell, if you can show a video of the ability moving you in a direction you’re not facing i’d love to see it.

              • Ether_Man

                Actually I do understand it, and I’ve explained it quite throughly… Which you admitted you just ignored… So there’s really not much else to talk about in that respect until you do…

                As for what GW2 uses… It uses TCP (port 80, 443, 6112, and 6600 to be precise), whatever that matters, and as for video, there’s plenty for you on youtube to watch this happening…

    • evil_mike

      Personally, I’d love it if they made the ranger’s primary RANGED weapon (longbow) more viable for another other than at max range. I’m not expert, but it seems like if they swapped the warrior’s LB abilities with the ranger’s, it’d make a lot more sense. Of course, it may also be my personal bias toward the LB, since I feel like it’s the most natural weapon for the profession.

    • AD1980

      I don’t play a ranger, but I feel for the class as our WvW groups consider the class simple bait. In fact, the term for enemy rangers in TS is “food”.
      Having said that, the best ranger I’ve fought against used sword main hand but had the auto attack off and used the ability manually. He was damn good, and one of the very few times I’ve loss to a ranger.

    • Ether_Man

      It’s certainly an option… It’s the best weapon in terms of dps output… Beyond that it’s extremely situational though… It can be very good weapon, or it can be your worst nightmare simply depending on situation… That’s one of the reasons you can have two weapons… Having said that… It’s still horrible and we’re the only class that has such a drawback on any weapon…

  • Sty

    I’m still wondering about the 10% decrease on overall damage, as such a decrease would mean a drop of about 30% of critical damage (from about 110% to about 75%). Pretty tough, isn’t it? Is it really on overall damage or on critical damage?

    • http://dulfy.net/ Dulfy

      In the livestream they said it is overall damage for max DPS zerker builds

      • Sty

        Ok, thank you for confirmation.

  • Hakko

    There goes MM as well, might as well go conditionmancer.

    They really have to work on making conditions more viable for PvE, its just useless when you have two of them ina dungeon group.

    • Tgreen

      Dhuumfire on DS is extremely clunky … hop in one shit (if it hits) get out … enjoy your full Deathshroud cooldown for 3 sec of burn (even 25% lower than what it is now). And then again DS is also Necros primary survivability. Everything about this change sucks.

      If they didn’t like the burn they could’ve changed it to Torment with lower CD and attached it to Staff 1 and Scepter 3 to give those skills more value. This could’ve been done while keeping the brun as well.

      But what I wonder most about Arenanet’s vision for condition builds is, why do all the percentage based modifiers – of which some are specifically crafted around conditions or in condition based trait lines – don’t augment your conditions in any way.

      • Hakko

        U 2 are definitely right, Last i returned to the game they nerfed the deathshroud which was the reason i fell in love with this class before being nerfed, Then they added something called dhuumfire which resulted in endless nerfs and the infamous nerf cycle.

        Now even more nerfs, MM nerfs, Power build massive nerfs, we already were not the most viable dps class for their dungeons and thats what their dungeons are all about, damaging.

        They should have just made the events more rewarding and leave dungeons to dust to make people use utility skills instead of damage skills.

        I think it is time i take a break from the game with all that’s been happening. Really sad.

    • AD1980

      Conditionmancer is dirt now too. Since adding Dhuumfire they’ve been nerfing the other areas of the spec in order to compensate for the damage that Dhuumfire brought. Now it appears they’re dramatically reducing our ability to keep burning on the target as well as making it come at the cost of survivability (forcing you into DS to apply DF puts Death Shroud on cooldown) without apparently adding anything else to compensate it.
      If this patch goes through without buffs to the rest of the spec, conditionmancers will be far weaker than they were before the introduction of Dhuumfire. You know, the ability they added because Necro’s didn’t do enough dmg…

  • Tom

    I feel instead of nerfing critical damage, they should have changed the way toughness works. Right now, “Attack” is power MULTIPLIED by weapon strength. Whereas “Armor” is defense PLUS toughness. Base power is 916, whereas base armor is around 2000 (depending on light/med/heavy armor class). So to double your damage, you only need to add 916 power. To cut the damage you take in half, you need to add around 2000 toughness. Add to that how few instances there are in PvE that give you any reason to emphasize toughness (drawn out fights with steady direct damage), and it really is the most useless armor stat, while power is the most useful.

    • Okamakiri

      It’s because they don’t want to make tanks viable. They’ve gone so out of their way to prevent the holy trinity at the cost of fun and gameplay.

      • Mar von V

        trinity isn’t fun and it’s a shallow excuse for gameplay. This game, with it’s lack of balance, is already more involving and more fun than any trinity game could ever dream.

        • Ether_Man

          Diffrent people have diffrent preferences… Trinity allows for some pretty complex pve strategies to take down difficult encounters and allows for finer tuning of the difficulty for diffrent group compositions… While the GW2 way, makes it harder to balance pve, but easier to balance pvp, and allows for basicly only one trick pony style pve encounters… Either the fights are just a zergfest, or there’s some specific trick to them… So for pvp, it really boils down to a balancing act… And for pve, it really just boils down to if you want a fight with mechanics, that once you learn, becomes easy… Or a fight with a trick to them, that ones you understand the trick, also becomes easy… It’s just a matter of if the preference is on a trick, or on experience… Trinity favours experience, while GW2 favours tricks… Simple as that…

          • Mar von V

            It’s merely an illusion for complex pve. I don’t think MOAR DPS and playing whack-a-mole is particularly complex. In fact, dps, healing and tanking are extremely boring and static experiences, not even worthy to be called gameplay. Trinity above all favours rote learning, cookie cutting and not thinking beyond looking at a threat bar.That’s not experience, that’s being a robot. Everything added such as rings of fire is merely to hide that shallow excuse for gameplay. GW2 may not be perfect, but trinity is worse in all aspects.

            • Ether_Man

              That’s because you havnt actually seen any complex fights then… While there certainly are fights that are only whack a mole or dps races… That’s certainly not a basic system that trinity is limited to… And no sorry, Trinity does favour learning everything, not just something like that… Nor does it favour cookie cutting… Cookiecutting is done by implementation of things like talents, or traits in GW2 which has JUST AS MUCH cookiecutting as any other games like it… That has no relation to trinity… And there’s A LOT more to watch for in a complex trinity fight than your threat… You must have played some pretty piss poor trinity style games if you believe that and actually believe that to be the limit of the trinity style… Well, it’s not… Fights can be much MUCH more complex than “dps until you see a red ring under you, then dodge and keep dpsing”… Because really, that’s what the fight mechanic of GW2 boils down to…

              • emikochan

                The point is, that the trinity does not solve the perceived issues with the non trinity system. GW2 having non-complex bosses/mobs is not an issue with the combat system itself, but more with the designers not making good fights.

                Anet proved with the jubilee bosses that there could be very fun and complex mechanics without needing a tank and a healer.

              • Ether_Man

                Well as for that I can agree… The trinity doesnt solve the non trinity problems, just as the non trinity doesnt solve the trinity problems… They’re entirely diffrent concepts with their own entirely unique problems…

                However, GW2 having non complex bosses, IS actually an issue with the combat system itself… You can make good fights without a trinity, but you cannot make the fights complex… And THAT is what anet proved with jubilee bosses… None of the jubilee bosses had a complex mechanic… Atleast one was actually hard, and several was good and fun… But none of them, were complex… They all had simple gimmicks and that’s pretty much what you’re limited to with the GW2 combat system…

              • emikochan

                I’m not seeing how the trinity games have more complex bosses. I raided in wow for years before coming to GW2 and things weren’t complex. (and needing perfect dps was even more important than in gw2)
                The main thing missing in GW2 for a long time was boss phases. And again that’s not a systematic limitation. Bosses requiring tight performance aren’t impossible with a non-trinity system either.

                Just not seeing this alledged difference that can’t be solved with good design.

              • Ether_Man

                Sorry but phases is just a change, it might as well just be diffrent bosses… Phases does not make fights more complex… But look… I dont know which fights in wow you actually raided… But compare the number of things each player need to keep track of just as an example… For GW2, you have your cooldowns, and the animation of one or two mobs to check for avoidance… Compare that to say just normal mode Garrosh… Where players need to keep track of where they are, where everyone else in the raid is, where Garrosh is, where the latest desecration is, along with either which engineer is active, or who’s being midcontrolled… 2 things… vs 5 things, and that’s counting keeping track of everyone in the raid, as only one thing… Claiming perfect DPS… is simply not true for WoW… was for fights like Kalecegos in SWP… But fights like that, are few and long in between… Most fights, you have lots of time… Garrosh goes down in ~5-7mins for me… While the time actually allows for 15mins… It requires NOTHING like perfect dps… Fights in WoW, has never been about dps races (even if those fights do exist)… If you thought they were, you were not doing your job properly in raids… Ignoring mechanics and treating fights as if they were, is only possible when heavily outgearing the instance…

              • emikochan

                I raided up to ice crown citadel in wrath (before I quit) And like i keep saying, the gw2 system does not preclude fights like that Garrosh thing you mentioned.

                There were plenty of dps check bosses in wow. Things may be different now. but again, it’s not trinity exclusive. Sunwell had some extreme dps requirements in TBC for example. Back when I played, if you didn’t have enough dps, the healers would run out of mana very easily.

                Also comparing the final boss of the expansion to a random boss in GW2 is not very fair. Compare it to the jungle wurms for example. You can’t possibly be implying the normal dungeon bosses in wow are complex or difficult.

                .

              • Ether_Man

                You say you raided up to ICC… Yet somehow have missed entirely all the fights before this? Seriously… If healers ran out of mana, it wasnt a problem of not enough dps… It’s a problem of not enough survivability of the raid requiring too much expensive heals… Usually caused by DPS not doing what they’re supposed to do, rather than not having enough dps… Such as not killing adds when they’re supposed to and so on… I’ve raided as healer, dps and tank, in all expansions, in all fights… Mana was a concern in vanilla that required you to cycle healers in long fights… Since TBC however, mana issues, is caused by noob players… NOT by fight mechanics… Im also not comparing the final boss to a random boss in GW2… Im comparing it to ALL the bosses in GW2… There’s not a single boss in GW2 that requires more than that… Im also not using the most complex fight in WoW… Garrosh fight is actually one of the simpler fights in SoO in terms of mechanics and things to keep track of… And yes, the GW2 system DOES preclude fights like garrosh… The GW2 system simply doesnt allow for tanks, which means that you CANNOT have a tank lead garrosh where he needs to be… By not having a tank, you also cannot control where he will throw concecration… And so on, and the damage flying around on everyone, simply cannot be healed without healers, because a DPS that could heal that much, would spend all their time doing so, and thus that’s a healer… You can change it around to allow for a dynamic trinity, where everyone can do all roles all the times… But that’s still a trinity and not the GW2 way… Without any trinity though, nope, not possible, sorry…

                And no, normal dungeon bosses… Are neither complex nor difficult… They’re not meant to be… They’re just meant to teach you basics about what those types of things do… If it burns on the ground, it should damage you enough to teach you that you should probably move sometime soon… But it shouldnt damage you so much that you’ll fail if you dont… Raids are a different matter though, where those things ARE important… And sorry, but even the jungle worm, is not all that complex… It’s difficult to execute, but it’s not hard mechanicly… Same thing with Tequatl… The only hard part, is getting everyone to do their job… Noone in any fight in GW2, has a complex job… It might be hard, though most isnt, but it’s never complex… The most complex job in the game currently is being a cannoneer on tequatl… And even that is a very straightforward job…

              • emikochan

                The person leading the boss in gw2 is whoever has agro, you don’t need a specific tank to have that mechanic.

                You can have damage flying around without healers, all it means with healers is that your lifebar is longer than it would be and the damage numbers have to be higher, it doesn’t change the mechanic.

                Difficult to execute is the only complexity these single character mmos have, they aren’t mechanically difficult like Starcraft. You aren’t multitasking – and it’s even less multitasking in a trinity game, the tank doesn’t suddenly switch to dps or healing. You don’t have the tank having to spec into condi removal to help the party.

                Having dynamic roles within a single character has higher potential for more interesting bosses. When gw2 is as old as wow you’ll see. anet have a lot of learning to do when it comes to encounter design but it’s already way more involving than anything I did in wow.

              • Ether_Man

                “The person leading the boss in gw2 is whoever has agro, you don’t need a specific tank to have that mechanic.”

                Simply not true sorry… Different bosses have different priorities… Some prefer high HP, others high armor, others top damage and so on… This has been confirmed by Anet multiple times… Im kind of surprised people still exist that still didnt know this…

                “You can have damage flying around without healers, all it means with healers is that your lifebar is longer than it would be and the damage numbers have to be higher, it doesn’t change the mechanic.”

                No it actually does change the mechanics of the fight… Healers become a limiting factor of range. Hence you now need to actually keep track of where your healer is and he needs to keep track of you… So a healer is NOT simply extending your lifebar…

                And oh dear… You really havnt played any proper trinity games… Arnt multitasking? You have massive amounts of multitasking in a proper trinity game… Much more so than non trinity ones… I also find it HILARIOUS that you find starcraft mechanicly difficult… You dont even understand what mechanicly difficult MEANS if you think that… Starcraft is 100% about strategy… You CAN have some mechanical complexity to RTS games, such as using diffrent damage numbers against diffrent targets… SC2 does this to some extent… But those are minor things and still really boils down to that it changes the strategy and has very little effect on actually applying that strategy… Multitasking, is not the same as complexity, nor is it a complexity… Also, it’s actually not uncommon at all that tanks suddenly switch to dps or healing… And it’s actually quite common with tanks that spec things like condition removal to help the party…

                Having dynamic roles, WILL BE THE HOLY TRINITY… The trinity is about having ANY roles… Dynamic or otherwise… I also havnt said anything about intresting bosses… There’s plenty of intresting bosses in GW2 already… You dont specificly need complexity to make a boss intresting, or difficult, as has already been said about the jubilee bosses… The diffrence between trinity and non trinity, are in preferences… They’re simply diffrent… Neither is better or worse than the other… Just diffrent… Trying to compare the two in terms of which is better is like trying to determine which is better between food or drink… We need both to survive… Neither is more important than the other and you can compare specific things between the two, but you CANNOT compare which of the two is better…

              • emikochan

                I didn’t say anything about better, why are you bringing that up. When I say mechanics I mean “Requires APM” If you think sc2 is pure strategy I expect to see you in code s.

                Also the different mob mechanics for agro was not something I brought up either. If the boss is on you, you’re the tank until it isn’t. Not sure how you misunderstood me there.

                Again, being out of range of your support is not unique to trinity fights. Location mattering is not unique to the trinity system.

                The whole point I’m trying to make is that the tank/healer trinity does not bring anything uniquely positive to encounter design. In my experience it just drags it out.
                I click just as many if not more buttons in gw2 as I ever did in wow.

              • Ether_Man

                “When I say mechanics I mean “Requires APM” If you think sc2 is pure strategy I expect to see you in code s.”

                APM, is about speed… It has nothing to do with complexity or any mechanics…

                “Also the different mob mechanics for agro was not something I brought up either. If the boss is on you, you’re the tank until it isn’t. Not sure how you misunderstood me there.”

                That’s not what you said… It’s also completely wrong either way… You’re not tank just because you have aggro… Aggro is just the current target… Noone calls a mage a tank in WoW just because he pulled aggro… A tank is someone that can actually stand to be beaten on for a long time and survive some large hits without being killed, while also keeping the target on themself… NEITHER of those criteria is filled just because you have aggro for a few seconds…

                “Again, being out of range of your support is not unique to trinity fights. Location mattering is not unique to the trinity system.”

                Except for GW2 where your position relative to the rest, doesnt really matter… You surviving, has no relation to you being close to someone else… It’s exclusively you…

                “The whole point I’m trying to make is that the tank/healer trinity does not bring anything uniquely positive to encounter design. In my experience it just drags it out. I click just as many if not more buttons in gw2 as I ever did in wow.”

                Clicking as many buttons in GW2 as you did in wow… Yea because GW2 certainly has some 70 buttons per class… Why certainly… Dont kid yourself… You’re not pushing anywhere NEAR as many buttons in GW2 as you did in wow… Even if we assumed this to be true, it’s a minor impact on combat complexity… Complexity is about how many things to keep track of… While an increased number of buttons can increase the number of things you need to keep track of, it’s far from always true… It sounds more and more like you were one of those rogues that just went in, sat at the boss until you either died or the boss went down, completely ignoring what you were supposed to do and instead just let everyone else carry you… Sorry but it really does sound like it…

              • emikochan

                You never used 70 buttons in wow. Also I played Shaman healer mostly, occasionally Paladin tank. I wasn’t carried when we did raids. I play Elementalist in GW2. APM is very much about mechanics, there are strategies that are impossible without being fast enough (in general gaming, no mmo requires high apm).

                You seem to be confusing the current fights in GW2 with the entire potential of the non-trinity system. One example would be the first boss in the new Twilight Arbor. It could easily be tuned higher, requiring the team to support eachother, you can’t stack and there are multiple jobs to be done.

                AGAIN, there’s nothing in the trinity system that means you inherently have more to keep track of. Trinity allows you to have less to keep track of because you don’t have to worry about performing all 3 roles at once.

                Personally I think keeping energy (and its various interactions) in GW2 would have been a good idea – and what may be leading to your confusion about system complexity. but that’s not relevant to this discussion.

              • Ether_Man

                Actually 70 buttons in WoW isnt all that uncommon, and have never been… You say Shaman healer, and Paladin tank… Both of which in up to wotlk, had the least amount of buttons in the game, sure but there’s still a lot more than in GW2…

                For paladin Tank in tbc and wotlk (since they were never viable in vanilla) you have 5 buttons in the rotation itself, plus 4 short CDs, plus another 4 long CDs… Plus 7 utility skills, plus the buffs… All of which you normally while tanking… That’s 20 skills you ACTUALLY use in combat… Compared to elementalist, who use tops two elements per spec, meaning 10 total for the elements, plus 5 for the utility, heal and elite… That’s 15… Still 5 less than elementalist, or any other class in the game really… The only one I can think of that could possibly be using more buttons would be an enegineer, that uses both of his weapons, and a kit… But I have yet to see such a spec…

                And sorry but no… No matter how many times you repeat it, APM will never be related to complexity or mechanics… I have a game that’s all about clicking your mousebutton as fast as possible… That’s certainly a high APM… But sorry, the game is NOT complex, or have any mechanics to speak of… It JUST tests the number of clicks you can do in a minute… Nothing else… Also, claiming no MMO requires a high APM is hilarious… 200 APM, is considered to be the best of the best in SC2… And sorry but there ARE actually MMOs that go this high… That YOU havnt played doesnt mean they dont exist… It’s irrelevant though… APM is just about pace, not complexity or mechanics…

                And no Im not confusing the current fights of GW2 with the entire potential of the non trinity system… Im comparing the potential of the trinity system, with the potential of the non trinity system that GW2 uses… (Im sure there are other options than just GW2 method and trinity)… And yes you can tune the TA boss to be harder… You cant tune it to be more complex though without introducing specific player group roles, which is exactly what GW2 moves away from having…

                “AGAIN, there’s nothing in the trinity system that means you inherently have more to keep track of. Trinity allows you to have less to keep track of because you don’t have to worry about performing all 3 roles at once.”

                Yes you could dumb down trinity to have nothing to keep track of… You could do the same with GW2 system…We’re not comparing the worst situation possible in each system… The only reasonable thing to compare is obviously the potential of each system… And that’s nothing to do with performing all three roles at once… Because you’re not… You dont HAVE a role to play in GW2… You’re just you…

              • emikochan

                You are incorrect, you didn’t need that many buttons in wrath at all. (You aren’t buffing in combat btw)

                Ele uses all spells too, not just 2 attunements.

                Name an mmo that requires 200apm, I don’t believe you. You’re controlling one character. There is no way you could be making 200 meaningful actions a minute.

                I don’t understand how you aren’t getting the point. Lets go back to the original point: You said that non trinity combat is just tricks and not experience.

                Trinity is no different.

                Once you have the strat for any given fight it becomes about executing that strategy, It’s not inherently more complex in a trinity game (it’s arguably simpler). Just because it’s harder to balance doesn’t mean it can’t be.

              • Ether_Man

                Right… You just proved you ARE one of those that just mindlessly expect people to carry you rather than do what you’re supposed to… No wonder you have a warped view on the trinity system… Yes, you DO buff in combat, and no, as an ele, you dont use all spells… Do YOUR job… Dont try to do the job of everyone else, you’ll be crap at it anyway…

                An mmo that requires 200apm… Noone said anything about requiring… SC2 dont require 200apm… It’s the best of the best that does 200apm… Average SC2 players do 50apm… Which is slower than WoW… As for an MMO where you CAN do 200 meaningful APM… There’s EVE… A game which, btw, lets you choose yourself if you want to go for Trinity or GW2 style :)

                And no I didnt say non trinity combat was just tricks… I said tricks was the only way to add any sort of complexity to the fights… While trinity allows for a lot of diffrent ways to add complexity.

                And yea strategy you say… But non trinity doesnt allow for strategy… You can do a bit of tactics, but no strategy… And seriously… The tactics of GW2 style… Is a joke… The tactic boils down to a dps priority, no more…

              • emikochan

                What? You don’t play EVE, the server only accepts one command every 1 second. You can’t have more than 60 apm by definition.

                Also in EVE, if you have logi (and enough hp to survive a 1shot) you win against anyone that doesn’t. So it’s not really a choice if you want to do anything important. (you don’t need a tank and healer to level in wow for example)

                The average wow player is terrible, I doubt they have 50 apm

                You don’t place 30 min blessings in combat, the buff totems also lasted a very long time. Maybe things are more mobile nowadays, but when I played wow it was simple. Most actions people perform are not required.

                Either way I don’t see any methods of adding “complexity” that can’t also be used in a non-trinity system. You’re oversimplifying one unfairly. Splitting the roles over the entire party doesn’t mean you can’t have roles.
                It just makes it harder to balance. That’s not a systematic issue. That’s a dev issue.

              • Ether_Man

                “What? You don’t play EVE, the server only accepts one command every 1 second. You can’t have more than 60 apm by definition.”

                Err… You’re simply lying here… If that was true, you wouldnt be able to sync up your turrets, which you can… hence proven you’re just lying and have no clue what you’re talking about…

                “The average wow player is terrible, I doubt they have 50 apm”

                GCD of 1.5s without haste, gives you 40APM just there… Plus then all movement, targetting and skills not on GCD… You’d be surprised at how many wow players are easily above 50 apm…

                “Also in EVE, if you have logi (and enough hp to survive a 1shot) you win against anyone that doesn’t. So it’s not really a choice if you want to do anything important. (you don’t need a tank and healer to level in wow for example)”

                HAHAHAHAHAHAHA…. So speaks someone that REAAAAALLY have no clue about the game… Sorry but that’s not how eve combat works… Never has… Just so you know, I usually fly an interceptor… A frigg survives a shot from me, even a t1 frigg… NOONE however is able to hit or target me, hence, in the end, I will win, because you also wont be getting away… Your only chance, is if you manage to get someone else to take your place by say, warp stabbing you so you can warp out and stranding themself with me instead… or get someone with a strong enough and fast enough AoE blast… Point is, unless you’re specificly fitted to kill me, you’re not going to, no matter who you are or what you’re flying… And no you’re quite right that you dont need a tank and healer to level in wow… You’re not using the trinity system while just question either so your point is moot anyway… But you can do the hardest content in EVE (as in either fleets, or even the most difficult complexes in 00 space, entirely without healers or tanks… Or just tanks… or just ganks… or just healers… It’s all your choice really… Properly fitted for the task, you can take on anything like that…

                “You don’t place 30 min blessings in combat, the buff totems also lasted a very long time. Maybe things are more mobile nowadays, but when I played wow it was simple. Most actions people perform are not required.”

                You dont place 30min blessings in combat no… UNLESS, about a thousand diffrent scenarios happen, most commonly, someone dies and is CRed… Then you do, if you’re gonna do your job… Keeping the buffs up, is namely part of your job…

                “Either way I don’t see any methods of adding “complexity” that can’t also be used in a non-trinity system. You’re oversimplifying one unfairly. Splitting the roles over the entire party doesn’t mean you can’t have roles.”

                Actually that’s the definition of not having roles… You either have role to play, or you do everything, in which case you dont have a role to play… You’re just one of many cogs that’s all easily replaced… So yes, it actually does mean you cant have roles like that…

                “It just makes it harder to balance. That’s not a systematic issue. That’s a dev issue.”

                We’re not talking about balance and no, it actually makes it EASIER to balance when you dont have to balance diffrent roles against eachother… That’s one of the reasons Anet went with a non trinity system as they’ve said multiple times even… The entire reason classes are so simplified in GW2 compared to GW1, was because of the complexity of balancing GW1 with its huge amount of skill and diffrent roles to balance…

      • Vael Victus

        Which is funny, because the cleric stat formula’s been working fine for many people as of late.

  • Lasselen

    What I wonder is: what happens when I use two on-crit sigils with the same effect? Do the trigger chances stack as they did in the past, with the cooldown being common (so no change) or is the second sigil completely useless?

    About zerker builds, 10% damage decrease isn’t a big deal since they were overpowered in most PvE situations, killing monsters before they could land a single hit. However running zerker in dungeons was dangerous as survivability is completely sacrificed with this build (especially melee). This nerf could make it no longer viable in dungeons, if it ever was.

    • Okamakiri

      Especially Thieves… DPS is the most valuable thing they bring to the group, and the only viable build is full on zerker, at the cost of probably the worst survivability in game. Nerfing the damage by 10% of quite possibly the weakest PVE class with no compensation? Just another of many shortsighted decisions from ANet…

      • Lasselen

        Conditions with double daggers works wonders too but it means going melee, so even less survivability. Of course this build would get nerfed as well, since it uses 2 bleed-on-crit sigils… Like most condition builds.

    • Cobalt

      The second sigil would be useless.. they said you can’t use 2 of the same sigil and u can’t use 2 sigils that give a stacking effect.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/Guideranger Guideranger .

    Of all the bad things in this update, at least you can now have 2 sigils on a Greatsword

  • Philoski

    10% reduction on critical dmg? ouch. I understand in some cases as Lasselen posted below that monsters get killed before they land a single hit, but you also have to understand that mainly all these high zerker/dps builds are really squishy. Notice that thieves are the only profession not being included in any of the nerfs and most probably due to the fact of the crit dmg reduction. I run a thief with 112% crit dmg and 122% boosted with foods/nutrition. This class is well known for its burst dmg obviously, as well as some other classes depending on the build they choose/ prefer. If this reduction does get taken into action, 20% reduction of the original burst if food/nutrition is “not” accounted for. Yea perfect idea.. might as well start working on a condition build.

    • Sty

      According to January’s livestream, the reduction is not on critical damage, but on overall damage (which means about 30% reduction on critical dmg if there only are changes on ferocity/critical damage).

    • Throwny

      I run a zerker thief as well and I have swapped to a sword/dagger evasion thief but for a survivable condi thief you could run 0 0 30 15 25 but I cant remember the traits o use but message me in game for more info names Throwy :p

  • eoio

    I don’t understand the sadistic way of Anet in “balancing” the game. The key word is Sadism. So we have a class A is under-performing in comparison with other classes B C D E F due to initial design short coming. Conventionally someone with common sense would say ” ok, then I’ll lift class A UP to the same level of everyone else so that everyone can be happy”. But that’s not how Anet does thing. Their way, which they EXPLICITLY admitted, is to bring down everyone else to make that balance, i.e. ” Ok, I’ll nerf everyone else so that you all will suffer happily together”.

    • Liquid Blade

      Simply put, doing that, ends up with everything being overpowered. You can make classes fight well together by constantly buffing the weak aspects, but then you just have 8 classes that have no difficulty with the non-pvp content. And no, saying “buff the npcs” then, is not a good idea.

      Regardless of Anet’s ability to Balance, buffing is more of a negative in the long term than nerfing.

      • Filippo Chinello

        They should take everyone at the level of Rangers, just to see the game fail badly

  • GuestGuest

    Disgusting stuff from Anet…though people did pushed them with all the “berserkers FTW”, “LFG berserkers only, every other builds GTFO”, “only DPS, no noobs”.
    But really, this is still not helping.

  • wuanie

    If they think bringing down bzerker will incentivize build diversity and grouping, how naive! Since bzerker power dropped, people will not afford even more loss of efficient, i.e. even more picky in grouping ( more likely to kick folks w/o zerker). So long as bzerker set is still the strongest set in power, I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to pick others, and will be more selecting in pug. Everyone should do the same to put pressure on Anet and prove to them how naive their thinking process is.

    • Vael Victus

      Enjoy waiting longer for groups and taking longer to finish.

  • Mar von V

    I don’t see a single good change for PVE in those skill changes. Only the ferocity change will be sorta kinda useful

  • DejF

    Will this affect wvw ? Or Just pve??

  • Jako

    I don’t understand the reason of zerk nerfing.
    Zerker will be still the best way to run dungeons, the only difference is that now your zerk party can carry one or two “dead weight” tank across the dungeon, after this patch it will be “all 5 full zerk or nothing”.
    That means more gearchecks, more kicks, more “class-build racism”. The not-zerk builds will be banned from dungeons more than now. I really don’t understand what anet is doing….

    • Filippo Chinello

      they don’t know what they are doing, how could we know it?

  • Marco

    So is my mesmer going to be better off having a condition build after this? Staff and scepter/torch?

    • Lasselen

      For conditions I advise scepter/pistol, with traits that increase illusions’ power, reduce phantasm recharge rate and 20 in Duel line to have Fantasmal Fury and illusion bleed on crit. Easy to get to 25 stacks of bleeding on a single boss target by spamming Phantasmal Duelist and other multiple-hit phantasms (such as greatsword or focus phantasms, although Duelist benefits from the range to survive longer).
      Just make sure you don’t use the scepter’s auto-attack when you have 3 phantasms up (that’s why I use Greatsword with bleed-on-crit sigil, even with no critical damage bonus).

    • hater

      fuk your mezmer

  • Synterra

    They messed up rangers partly with pet they are almost pointless in WVW and barely better in PVE unless you spec purely for pet survivability/damage output by forsaking your own contributions. Another thing they messed up was stability by making it removable the elite Rampage as One is pointless long cool-down with half the buffs my thief has just by stealing every time it is up. Id much rather have a short cooldown stability for short duration like so many other classes have. Also the knockback/stun in WVW is ridiculous 1 second from this ability and 3 from that one makes it overpowered was in a 5v5 spvp match and warrior and engineer kept me almost completely locked down for the whole fight.

    • Ann onymous

      Short stability: signet of the wild

      If you’re a noob, you really shouldn’t talk about balance.

      • Ether_Man

        signet of the wild only gives stability to your pet unless you spec that signets grants you the same as your pet… In which case your pet needs to be alive for it to apply… If you go for that spec, your pet wont be alive (because you then dont have the needed points to put into pet surviving) meaning you wont get the effect… So sorry but you really shouldnt be calling others noob, when you dont even know what you’re talking about… It’s also a 60s CD… Which is one of the longest CDs for gaining stability in the game… So it’s certainly not short as you claim…

        • AnonAnonA

          lol… Ann onymous got owned

  • Fox0228

    Well, looks like engies nerfed again :( Why don’t try and make more diversity in the builds rather than nerf they most used. The trait lines are still a little pointless in builds that are run. You’re stuck running points into lines to get one but but at the sacrifice either damage, mobility, or survival. To add onto that you’ll end up being really squishy no matter what since the last nerf. I wish ANet would add more construction capabilities beyond the turrets and the mortar, like the capability of making temporary walls of sandbags and/or a trap kit similar to the bomb kit or possibly more instant damage type attacks/kits to throw more variety in to engi. It used to be a complicated class and took skill but all the nerfs are making it so hard to go up against other players I’ve been avoiding sPvP and WvW because I’m too damn squishy or I’m so tough and durable I don’t contribute much of anything beside being a meat shield.

    Opinions any avid engineers? I’ve played mainly ONLY engi since closed beta, so this is just my two cents. What are your thoughts?

  • Elena Callegari

    this is not only gonna damage the party composition excluding once and for all every non zerker player, it’s also targeting WvW by making Celestial gear useless, hence elementalists will have to either be full glass or full tanky. ”Our changes for the elementalist focus on increasing sustain while maintaining the delicate balance between damage and durability” yeah right, even if on official forums there’s a dev post about a possible stat increase on celestial gear that’s neither confirmed nor granted, and no mention about divinity runes either. thanks for fucking up celestial sets anet, and a bigger thanks from whoever made an ascended celestial set.

  • Lord Neckbeard

    Every time I consider returning to this game, I find out they’re nerfing warriors yet again.

    • Filippo Chinello

      Actually, warriors are Fu**ing overpowered compared to other classes.
      A naked warrior is almost as strong as a full ascended Ranger or Guardian
      (just kidding, but they are still op)

      • Throwny

        you’re right rangers are not the most viable class either going glass longbow / great sword spirit ranger auto attack bleed spam with shortbow

    • Me

      Yet another warrior? It’s ok, don’t return.

  • R3d3

    Can somebody tel me is this change only in pve or wvw also??

    • Sty

      There is no separation between pve and wvw regarding skills/equipment/stats, so yes it will impact wvw as well.

  • Phantom

    Before they make this change to Zerker build One has to think why they come into the play in the first place? People want to run through dungeons as fast as possible or tag as many mobs as they can so as to make as much cash as possible quickly. If Some how the game game design can be in such a way that its more about the mechanics rather than how much damage is bursted in a shot span of time it will help.

    Condition builds ticks slowly and in Big groups there is so much condition that ur condition is ripped off.
    While Toughness and vitality are nice defense, the game itself revolves around dodging and trying not to tank. Which means more proficient the player gets with things these status becomes obsolete.
    That always leaves strength precision Crit damage as the most valued ones

    So one should ask why would a hardcore player who is mastering dodge will really go for Vit or toughness or Heal?

    In what way can Condition damage be more productive than Strength or crit based damage?

  • Lorin

    warriors need a nerf! but not all other!

  • Filippo Chinello

    What about Rangers? someone forgot there’s rangers in gw2 too ?

    • .

      Rangers? what rangers =P

    • Me

      Ran…what? Is that the class with the pet? OH you mean Necros!

  • Lapreea

    They could easily make it so deceptive evasion still makes clones on dodge, just when max clones are present conditions are not being continously applied… everyone wins >.>

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