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SWTOR Bioware discusses Patch 3.2.1 Sentinel/Marauder Changes

Bioware is opening up several discussion threads to discuss some of the upcoming sentinel/marauder changes players can expect in patch 3.2.1 and their reasoning behind them.

3.2.1 Marauder/Sentinel Insight: Defensive Forms | 05.06.2015, 02:42 PM

Hey everyone,
We’ve been following the discussions regarding the Annihilation/Watchman changes since the last PTS patch, and I wanted to take a moment to lend some insight on a few points and discuss potential improvements. We will start by discussing the 3.2.1 changes to Defensive Forms.

Defensive Forms:

We know that this has been a sensitive topic for some time and found it pertinent to reassess the Utility and expand its functionality. By dividing the original buffs among multiple Utilities and removing the stance requirement, we aim to bolster the intrigue of other Utilities and provide the opportunity for all Disciplines and stances to utilize these defensive and utility buffs as they see fit.

We understand that many of you have been calling for Defensive Forms to be made baseline, but we need to maintain choice within the Utility system. The three previously Form-restricted effects tied to the original Defensive Forms (damage reduction, internal and elemental damage reduction, and movement speed) are all great defensive and utility skills that should be player driven options in the Utility system. While the Fury/Centering generation applied by Defensive Forms (and the new Brazen/Stoic) improves the DPS and defensive output of Marauders/Sentinels who are being actively attacked, it does nothing for those who are avoiding damage or attention and allowing their team/companions to draw the target’s ire. Due to this fact, we are leaving this Fury/Centering generation skill as a player choice and not moving it to a class-baseline passive.

We will be releasing threads concerning Marauder/Sentinel updates over the next few hours in stages. They will offer insight on Annihilation/Watch Rotation changes, Hungering/Merciless Zeal changes, and an open address on improving set bonuses to reduce their impact on limiting rotation flexibility. We are staggering the release of these posts to allow you all time to respond on individual topics and keep the discussions focused.

Cheers, all!
John

3.2.1 Marauder/Sentinel Insight: Annihilation/Watchman Rotation Design Philosophy | 05.06.2015, 05:02 PM

Hey everyone,

Continuing our threads that lend insight on recent design changes, we will be sharing some of our Annihilation/Watchman design philosophies and offering perspectives from our extensive internal testing of the new Annihilation/Watchman rotation.

Annihilation/Watchman Rotation Design Philosophy:

  • A Responsive and Reactive Rotation: Following our design philosophy of making the Annihilation/Watchman Discipline the most challenging and potentially rewarding Marauder/Sentinel Discipline to play and player feedback that the current Live Annihilation/Watchman Discipline is “boring,” “predictable,” and “easy to play,” we have designed the new rotation to require the use of a varying priority system, rather than a predetermined rotation that fits neatly within some set duration of time, in order to maximize damage output. Players will need to rethink how the rotation plays and respond carefully to each situation to get the most out of the new Annihilation/Watchman Discipline. This design lends itself to a visceral playstyle, which will see a successful Marauder/Sentinel reacting instinctively to each combat situation as it arises. This playstyle should appeal to players that prefer variance over predictability in their combat experiences.
  • Never Underestimate Force Rend/Force Melt: From the beginning, Force Rend/Force Melt was designed to be a longer-lasting, damage-heavy DoT ability, and this has not changed with the new rotation design. Force Rend/Force Melt packs quite a prolonged punch and feeds your Rage/Focus regeneration and self healing. Making sure that it is active on any targets that will last for 15 or more seconds is essential to maximizing damage output. Due to its longer duration, it is also an easier DoT spread than Rupture/Cauterize.
  • Never Overestimate Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw: Some abilities are only designed to be used situationally. For example, as an Annihilation Marauder/Watchman Sentinel, you are only intended to use Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw in multi-target situations, while its damage is boosted by Pulverize/Mind Sear, and/or when stuck at a long distance from your enemy target.

Cheers, all!
John

3.2.1 Marauder/Sentinel Insight: Self Healing and Set Bonuses | 05.06.2015, 08:15 PM

Hey everyone,

Concluding our threads that lend insight on recent Marauder/Sentinel design choices, we’re continuing with a discussion regarding Annihilation/Watchman self healing changes and a discussion on improving set bonuses.

Hungering/Merciless Zeal Changes:
The new design for Hungering/Merciless Zeal is intended to drastically improve the self healing potential of Annihilation/Watchman players depending on their offensive involvement and multi-target coordination. On a single target, the HPS has been slightly decreased. This is by design to counterbalance the vastly improved self healing provided by DoTing multiple targets. With the new Hemorrhaging Smash/Burning Sweep Smash/Force Sweep cooldown reduction, spreading DoTs is easier and more fluid than on Live. This should drastically increase the self healing and DPS potential of Annihilation/Watchman players combating multiple targets.

Set Bonus Improvements:
We also want to take this opportunity to ask the Marauder/Sentinel community about expanding the ability trigger options for the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus set bonus. At present, only Ravage/Master Strike can trigger the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus. To allow for greater rotational flexibility across all Marauder/Sentinel Disciplines, we want to discuss the potential to add additional abilities as trigger activators. At present, we are considering adding Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw to the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus trigger. What are your thoughts on this? We want to reduce the rotational constraints of some set bonuses, and felt that this was an appropriate opportunity to discuss strategies with you all.

Thanks to all for the constructive feedback. Please feel free to share your perspectives on the proposed changes outlined above. We will continue to monitor and test thread feedback as we move forward.

Cheers, all!
John

By Dulfy

MMO guide writer and blogger. Currently playing and covering SWTOR, GW2, and TSW.

99 replies on “SWTOR Bioware discusses Patch 3.2.1 Sentinel/Marauder Changes”

First? Really? This is gonna be fun.
/lawnchair
/popcorn

Seriously, as someone who plays Mara as well as someone who over the years in a couple MMOs, including that which shall not be named, sometimes you just have to roll with the punches. MaraSents are still viable in both PvE and PvP. Sometimes you just need to remember you play this game to have fun and accept that things aren’t perfect.

Or reroll Jugg because the slogan since 3.0 has been #MoJuggaMoBetta.

Well said. My opinion to two points: Rise above the crying game and play your favorite class regardless. Secondly, if you can advance in current content (in any side of the game), re-roll and try again. That is why there are 8 advanced classes and 24 disciplines per faction.

Marauders just aren’t op like Juggernauts – and of course the class that has been op the whole time the game exists – assassins.

Well, there goes one class/toon I’ll no longer be playing.

1 down 7 to go. Hmmm. Will I make to August?

Way to go guys, way to go

Only one? I already stopped playing with my sage healer, my scoundrel healer, my operative healer and my marauder. Anxiously awaiting for them to nerf my merc healer into oblivion too…

sage healer? nerfed? what, where? O.o it’s the most OP healer atm
and the 3.2.1 nerf is gone for now

and scoundrel/oper healing is very viable

For a class to be enjoyable to play it needs to be more than a “viable healer”, even if it is a healer class. Flyby and its op equivalent were first nerfed horrendously and then completely taken away. In PvE my toons were reduced to essentially keeping the companion alive while the companion does all the work. And if “the work” requires a bit more intelligent play than what you can get from a dumb companion – just forget it. So, these toons of mine are now gathering dust in their respective ships and occasionally crafting; nothing else.

I am not saying that a healer class also needs to be a super-duper dps, but these nerfs are ridiculous. Currently only my merc healer is enjoyable to play. That probably won’t last, though.

ow, you’re talking about solo play..
surprise, surprise, no healers is much good at dps.. but scoundrel isn’t that bad imo, at least I don’t have much trouble killing stuff solo on mine..
especially my sage is good at it, I could give you a few tips if you like.. all content that’s meant to be soloable, isn’t bad at all for any of the 3 healers
flyby nerf was a blow, true, and removing explosive charge (or whatever the name was) also sucked a bit, but you still have enough to kill shit

I’m about as casual a player these days as you can get, and the majority of my toons are healers for grouping. I leveled most of them through the game in a hybrid healer spec prior to SoR. It was a sad day for me when I realized hybrid specs had gone the way of the dodo. But the oh so available 192 gear for both companions and myself has made it dead easy to set up separate gear sets for healing and dps, and I honestly cannot think of a reason you’d stick to a healing spec for solo play except for sheer stubbornness. It was always less optimal to solo as a pure healer, even as a hybrid spec, but like you, I loved my healers. Now that it is truly sub par to solo in heal spec….switch it out to dps for soloing. It dies fast for all my healers in dps mode. Running solo in healer spec is like watching paint dry, so I do see your point, but sincerely, it is very easy to switch to dps and back. No reason to park your toons unless you despise doing dps so much vs healing that you just hate playing a dps spec.

go to new ops HM with 4 marauders and and later with 4 mercenaries and you will figure what to do with mara’s

When you increase the difficulty of playing a dps spec, it’s dps should go up or a least remain constant.

3.2.1 anni changes will raise the spec’s difficulty yet nerf it’s damage. Bravo BW. /golfclap

Though I am looking forward to carnage being the top sustained dps spec thanks to BW’s incompetence. It’s always been the best mara spec imho.

and third place is pretty good place for a class which is “constantly nerfed to the ground” (according to some..), don’t you think?

Doesn’t change the fact that marauders are still melee. They are more vulnerable to mechanics than ranged in PvE, so their DPS suffers for it in boss fights. And these changes amount to a 350 DPS nerf on dummies, shorter DoT durations mean the nerf will be even greater in fights. So no, it’s not “pretty good”. Marauders will no longer have a place in PvE in 3.2.1. There will be better options for every situation.

it’s current place (3rd) IS pretty good, but whatever
I’m in no way supporting a sent nerf, though I don’t play watchman myself, if it’s indeed a 350 dps nerf (I don’t know if that’s just a changed rotation problem, as I don’t play it) it’s a bit to much, and they should increase dmg (as a reward for using a more difficult rotation)
“Marauders will no longer have a place in PvE in 3.2.1” nonsense, it might be true for the more hardcore progression stuff, but in any other PvE content they’ll still be fine

When I say PVE, I mean HM Ravagers and ToS. I run a marauder for 6 of the 10 bosses, a merc for the rest. Even pre 3.2.1, the merc is probably more useful to the raid. Post 3.2.1, I would be actively hindering my raid team by bringing my marauder over my merc. BW has successfully killed marauders as a competitive DPS for progression.

biofail Strikes again.. keep the punches coming u terrible group behind swtor.. just keep burying the game more and more.. to where u have literally none of your player base left

Bioware is letting PVP players ruin this game with the constant nerfs to classes. The PVE players are who suffer but Bioware doesn’t care. Catering to the PVP crybabies and eliminating the viability of certain classes in PVE raids is what this game has become. R.I.P. SWTOR

PvP is hardly getting anything, almost ALL content is PvE shit (apart from reskinned ranked rewards)
this change wasn’t even PvP specific, nobody in PvP EVER claimed that watchman sent was boring to play (unless they’re lucky to have a good pocket healer and some good skill)
only PvE players really whine about boring rotations

Do operations bosses complain dps is OP? Do flashpoint bosses complain? How about in-game mobs? Do they tell BW certain classes are too stronk?

Oh wait a minute, they dont. But we all know who complains EVERY SINGLE TIME. That BS excuse that “pvp’ers dont get anything new” is old. So instead of trying to make the game better yall make it worse by doing what…………complaining that you get owned 4 on 1 and “classes are OP”.

Most class changes and most nerfs have been directly influenced by pvp. I can guarantee you that most players in this game could not care less about pvp. It is such a small community it is focking shocking that Bioware continues to listen to them.

Nerf pvp. Remove that shit. Look at Galactic Starfighter. No one even plays that.

Ops bosses, flashpoint bosses and trash mobs all tell BW loads of information regarding class bias. In fact, more so than any PvP whiner could… and with much more validity and truth.

Practically any action you do on your character is logged on BW’s end. Moves used to kill an NPC. How long the fight lasted. What classes were involved. There are even flags raised when you loot a chest.

All that information is used to adjust PvE content so it can be more enjoyable. And this has happened plenty of times in the past. For example, some old operation trash mobs have been removed/relocated because people had a tendency to skip them a lot.

Also GSF is (was) awesome until they completely let gunships suck the fun out of it. Well, that… and the fact they stopped caring about it.

Anyway. Screw your selfish agenda. I enjoy playing both PvE and PvP. And I wish to continue to do so in the future.

The problem of this game are the Nerf lovers and the complainers.

So damn them and their stupidity.

And we all should comment to every single complainer and Nerf lovers comment we see from now on with a FCK you reply.
Thats all they deserve as an answer.

“Selfish” is wishing all the other classes are hindered to benefit you in PVP.

Not wanting the game’s classes to be homogenized- because people like you will never stop thinking that RPGs with disparate classes can be perfectly balanced, and moving from mmorpg to mmorpg like a cloud of locusts, whining and demanding everyone who beats you is weakened, until the entire game is sterilized, at which point you rage quit because “the game is dead pvp sux” and move on to the next game that also won’t be the second coming of DAoC -is not a selfish agenda.

Vanguard dps used to have a viable mortar volley……then pvpers complained it was too strong. Lmao dont stand in stupid? Force Quake nerfed into oblivion because pvpers cried and whined. Again….dont stand in stupid? Flyby got nerfed nasty style, and then to add insult to injury was completely removed from scoundrels and operatives……why? Because moron pvp’ers stand in stupid and complain damage is too much. Shadow too stronk? Here come the pvp’ers running their mouths and Bioware listens. Everytime a moron gets melted 5 on 1 in pvp he complains classes are overpowered.

NO you IDIOT. you got jumped 5 on 1.

I know you moron pvp’ers hate reality but the reality is that your BS warzones are killing this game. The worst part is that you people consider yourselves good players lmfao. You dont melt because a class is OP. The reason you melt in pvp is because you’re an idiot that doesnt use stuns correctly, you dont stay out of aoe’s, you dont interrupt casts, you dont slow mobile classes.

Gigantic morons and even bigger crybabies

Nerf PVP.

I agree. PVP players are killing the game. I think that BW should just canc all pvp gear and content, and let the pvp peeps play it out on their own. If one class ends up being OP, then they can either make that class, or deal with it.

for a person who used to be hardcore PVP player, this sorta sucks… but i’ll have to admit that many patches and balances based on PVP is ruining the game. And they aren’t even getting the PVP balances right. They should seriously revise the bolster & expertise system and use them in completely separate PVP and PVE effects and stats. Keep things separated and let bolster kick in on different zones such as open PVP zones (i guess that’s PVP servers entirely), outlaw’s den, warzones and ranked warzones… At least devs can keep one side happy, and implement changes and brings different challenges to the players if the stats are placed differently based on PVP and PVE zones… To be honest, where does PVE stats mostly count on? in instances… where does PVP stats mostly count on? warzones… two separate zones, two separate bolsters can be implied in the use of balancing things out. they can leave regular planetary zones for lvling and questing and open world pvp as it is.

As someone who has and actively plays both PvE and PvP toons, I can say this is a load of garbage.

All the complaints I have about PvP have very little to do with ability outputs. I may be the minority, but it’s stupid to lump the two together. I’ve never complained about forcequake nor have I complained about mortar volly. But stuff changes, you got to move on.

I have toons specifically suited for both PvE and PvP. I run raids in my guild on my PvE toons and play lots of ranked on my PvP toon. So I can see that you’re argument is baseless. There have been equal amounts of overflow when it comes to balancing done ‘specifically’ to cater to one style or the other. It is most certainly not run by any PvP bias.

All those aoe nerfs were for pve as much as pvp, BW didn’t like the fact that sorcs should use storm half the time, to get max dps..
The other aoes got nerfed because they were valid on single target rotations (not meant to be like that)
“pvp’ers stand in stupid” yeah right, do you even know any half decent pvp’er?
If you did, you’d have known how little they whine
you don’t think some classes are somewhat too strong? How about classes that have no trouble killing 1v2 (or 3, if they’re bad), or dps who do as much healing as a weak/near decent healer, and still has really good dps?
(they destroyed shadow tank in pvp, only to give even more selfheal to dps :/..)
As a good pvp’er myself (duel me, if you dissagree ;p) I don’t think anything which you claim all of us to think

PS. Surprise, surprise, most pvp’ers are pretty good at pve (including hm ops), sad that it doesn’t work the other way around

The prob is good pvp players today are more than purple Diamonds.
The whiners the cry babies and the quitters are filling the wzns these days.

no they’re not.. though I guess it’s a bit server dependent
and it helps not getting angry with quitters (hardly ever see any whiners tbh)

yet another disgusting PvE nerd who thinks reading a guide for a scripted raid boss makes him some kind of gaming god. I pity you.

Maybe because Pvp is full of whiners, complainers, newbillies and quitters.

So thats why its at the level it is today.
And thats better compared to other on -line games.

Anyone who chose THIS game to only pvp in, needs a psych eval. It’s a clunky, unbalanced, and steaming pile of pointlessness.

Please give me a few games with beter pvp, preferably star wars, and with a fun community (pvp has one, once you get to know them)

WoW, Smite, LoL, Dota 2, CS:GO, ESO, SC2. Tons of them out there. Just like the guy above, if you’re pvping here simply because its a starwars game, you really have no idea what PVP really is about.

“WoW” don’t like the look of the game, and that would distract me to much to enjoy it
“Smite, LoL, Dota 2” tried them, never liked them, I like the open world, pve and varied objective based wzs in swtor
“CS:GO” guessing that’s a counterstrike game? I sometimes play something like that, but I enjoy MMOs more
“ESO, SC2” have heard too much bad stuff about both games to really try it
I like this being a star wars game, I like the different objective based wzs (don’t like deathmatch much, but a good arena can still be fun), and this community is actually pretty nice.. am I mad now?

And all these games suck even more than swars.
Same sht there same complainers there same quitters there.

So why change ?
Just to wast your time only.

you let me know if there is any other game that lets you fight against another lightsaber wielders. and i do mean legitimate lightsabers and force, not a light swords and all other bs. Honestly, i’ve been keeping my eyes on the battlefront 3, but that’s a whole different game. you will be able to feel what rogue squadron does, or what it means to be in those battles, but not what it feels like to have a jedi/sith duels. This is the only game that lets you do that. If you feel like a pure fandom needs a psych eval, then I’ll have to pity you.

If you’re pvping in swtor simply because you like using lightsabers, then you’re a casual player whose opinion on class balance is irrelevant.

That’s horsecockery at its finest. PvPimpin ain’t PvEasy ya know, people that are strictly PvE need the psych eval.

The cycle of PvE is this: Do Ops and kill bosses for gear to kill the same Ops and bosses just a little bit faster than last time. Pointless.

PvP may be unbalanced but good, coordinated players that know what they’re doing can work around that, most of the time. Fun and compelling.

Not opinions, fact.

Blah blah. One class/spec has to be the worst (and I’m not even sure sentinels/marauders are it). A sentinel/marauder in the hands of a good player is more useful than a [insert flavor of month class] in the hands of a bad player. The only actual problem we have on our hands is how if you’re a marauder or sentinel, you’re generally not allowed in hard mode raids… unless you’re a proven mara/sent god your server has respected since before 3.0 (even though your skill in 2.0 should be irreverent when discussing your ability in 3.0, pet peeve there, sorry, long story). I constantly hear “no one is allowed to play sentinel except for [player name]”, and “we don’t let marauders in our raids”. (These were not comments aimed at me, but comments I see… and it’s annoying, and discourages me from playing my sentinel.) As much as I think these opinions are stupid, they are incredibly widespread, and BioWare needs to do something to dispel this idea that the class is not viable. It’s poor game design to have a class you’re “not supposed to play”. All classes should be “good enough”, since they can’t all be the best, and probably can’t be equal… and if BioWare can’t do that, nobody will care about their vision for how the class should play. They’ll just want them to fix it.

I agree with you there I get tired of seeing sorry no sentinel/marauders in this raid group yet they seem to forget when used correctly and wisely they are a damn good class to have in your raid group.

NO!!! Not PVP!!!! PVP can die and go to hell. What class is OP in the operations??? That’s what really matters.

Mercs are still the single best dps for operations. Powertechs are still solid, snipers are holding their own, and sorcs are starting to be not as ideal anymore. Vengeance Juggs are pretty good too, and they can negate the “but I’m a melee class” because of saber reflect.

Cool beans!!! I got my power tech up to lv 60, so now I’ll get that mercenary done. Thanks for the input. I’ll see you all on the leveling field.

I fully agree. As someone who has maimed a marauder since beta it sickens me to see how much we have been cut back. Myself and many others miss the days when Marauders were the best DPS in the game. The devs should return Marauders to where they were back prior to all the PVP bitching nerfs. I fully understand any argument on the subject but one thing is undeniable, Marauder is strictly a DPS class with no other options, they deserve to be top dog and to be restored to their spot as best DPS in game just above Sniper.

All I can see is “Blah blah make my class better than all the others, we deserve it because that is the class I play!”

Meanwhile hey, let’s continue to nerf, gimp snipers and operatives, so you can always knock them out of cover , bypass their observation field , throw dots on them and run away..
Nerf the orbital for imp and take it away from ops, ..
Yeah but hey let’s continue to focus on making a single class better so is developers and the whiners are happy.. Yeah .. Oh, and what can we do to make mercy more obsolete than they already are and buff force users more so we see the same groups at the tops of the leader boards… Cause well , of course force users should always get more dots and beat tech users…
Up yours biosquare
Vasmii

I know that for month, the Sent/Mara Community and done and said everything they could to get feedback and change. Now they make changes based on the feedback they get, and the Community acts they are murdering and/or raping the class. Be happy you are getting feedback responses and work on your class. Quit treating the Devs like a bunch of stupid, brainless monkeys and respect the job.

You obviously either didn’t read or understand any of the feedback that was given. From closed 3.0 pts watchmen/anni players have told them what is wrong and what they want changed. Not only have the devs completely ignored them but today they release a condescending post which amounts to giving the community a giant middle finger telling them to L2P.

I have both a max level Mara and Sent, and have read just about every sentence of both PTS and Class forums threads on the game’s website, as well as here and other fan sites since the problems started post 3.0. I fully understand the issues Maras and Sents have. What I have been saying for months is if the Community continues to act like spoiled children whos favorite toy has been broken for ages, the Dev team is going to treat them as such.

You have to understand their side of this. They are working on the new game content since they want to launch two new expansions by December. Given that, their class balancing and issue fixing has gone into a rather secondary position. While this is not okay from the player’s perception, it’s the reality we all face.

I will play my Sent and Mara regardless of what changes. Luckily I happen to play them in Concentration and Fury, so the changes actually made them better recently. I wish Combat/Carnage was more playable, but for now I can play them without any issues in whatever content I need to.

and after the harassment of a dev sents/marauders can kiss any sympathy the devs had for their plight goodbye

If they were asking them to make Maras the new superman class, what you expect they should do ?

and thats the problem the good solutions are buried in a ton of “WAAAA I WANNA BE THE OP FOTM AGAIN”

i do give the devs thumbs up for the responding to the plight of sent/mara. however, it took them 5 months to fix this since the launch of 3.0. i just hope this is a major operation to the cancer that’s been on sent/mara players for a long ass time. a quick patch of band aid ain’t gonna help this class anymore. that 3.1 update was a joke and an insult to sent/mara players.

My opinion is that Sentinels/Marauders should be able to easily top the DPS. I say this because they have to be close to the baddie in order to deal out their damages, and that causes them to have to move more often than ranged types during boss fights to avoid taking damage. They have two light sabers!!! On top of this, they don’t have any heals, and limited defenses. Make them the glass cannon of the operation. If they can deal out the highest damage by far, the other roles will help keep them alive. That’s what the other roles are there for anyways. If all of the classes are equally balanced with dps, heals and defense, then why have roles?

My main’s been a sent from day 1 and I have never complained about it. Running watchman for the majority of that time, I’ve learned to deal with whatever they give me.

That being said, I don’t understand how watchman is supposed to be a “hard” discipline to play. I’ve liked it so much for the reason that it’s so easy that I don’t have to think about it. I lead a lot of raids in my guild, so having a rotation I don’t have to think about allows me to pay attention to other things happening in the group.

That’s great that you pretty much fully understand your classes role. I pretty much fully understand combats full DPS potential, but thats besides the point for us “veterans” that can take what they throw at us. Again I believe theres always a way to master a class and still be fruitful in OP’s, even if patches seemingly tone down/nerf a class a great deal.

However, you have to put your feet in the shoes of beginners and intermediate players, and not look at it from your experienced perspective. If the class is that much harder to master or be as good of an asset to a team as any other ranged DPS, then there’s a problem. What are the DEV’s jobs? to fix that problem. Now I know they can’t address ‘everything’, but this is a pretty big issue between 3.0 & now 3.2.1 patches, especially for raiding purposes. PvP is a whole other discussion.

Its a good emphasis they are a making in addressing the ‘survivability’ of the sent/mara classes with supposedly better defensive approaches, but there is still big issues, that should be considered, easy fixes. My biggest change I feel that should be made is to make contemplation a baseline passive ability, that starts between lvl’s 25-55. Level arrangements can be arguable, but nonetheless, make it passive. that’s just one example.

Another big issue is the Utility points balancing for sentinels and marauders. Going back to my contemplation passive idea, this would be more than enough for me, but still I feel there should be more flexibility in utilizing those points for this particular class. With all these defensive approaches and ideas being addressed, its now become a pro and con in the sentinel rotation as a pure DPS class. with them implemented, its now become paramount, almost completely necessary to utilize certain utilities as if being the blue prints of a fruitful sent/mara player, and destroys any possible chance of ‘choice’ over which utilities to mix it up with, and still be effective.

I don’t believe a sent/mara DPS is in much danger, potential, but not much. It goes without much needed approval the community over this whole matter of a sent/mara is very upset with BW’s approach to instead of fixing issues, only bringing more. Again I understand the class very much so myself, but that doesn’t mean there can’t be things fixed to make it more on par with other classes, so that newer players can better enjoy it.

I don’t play watchman spec not a fan of it. I have been playing combat since launch. Yeah all spec could use.lobe in pve not so much as in dmg just survivability. Don’t get me wrong i wouldn’t mind some dots as a combat sent lol just so i can do a Lil more dmg.

Until melee is designed for a little better in boss fights. I’m not running any melee toon. No matter how much they try and work on the class if the boss design screws with the class as much as it does melee now, I’m simply not playing a sent/mara or any melee class.

I just hope they stop designing OP fights that punish people for playing melee…
Range right now does more damage and avoids mechanics that affect melee only, I’ve tried to enter OP PuGs that have answered with “we already have a Sentinel”.
The raid buff is all Sentinels are wanted for since melees are a liability.

That was caused by all the recent Pvp Nerfs that cut down the few ranged abilities that melee classes had.

See above post for refutation of this highly stereotypical opinion.

It isn’t the class, it’s the people that play the class.

i dont care anymore.. they dont care, when they look like they care, they actually making another CC bull—-.. We give them so much feedback – they only ask after several weeks again, that they want our feedback (while still doing CC stuf…)
But what they really did?
Focus – one of the BEST aoe spec pre 3.0, now a two-megahit-bull**** with completely messed up aeo.
Watch – my favourite single spec pre-3.0 even though i have serious fps problems in melee fights, burn hits hit hard, it was fun, its was somehow simple and it was SINGLE TARGET… now they want us to spread while trying to stay close to the target…
Combat – well… 100% penetration should be on “next 3/2 attacks” not a timed-ability, still loves the burts and tbh atm it is a BEAST-AOE while in zen and spamming cyclone slash..

by the way, they where still making CC stuf, dont forget on that

I don’t think the people making new CC packs are the same people working on how sentinel/marauder plays.

To use a weird metaphor, you’re asking Pennsylvania small town cops to stop issuing traffic tickets when there’s a gang war somewhere in New York they haven’t dealt with.

That said… yeah I don’t get their sudden thought to make us more useful against trash mobs. It’s our ability to dish out damage on ops bosses I’m concerned with.

definitely they are not the same, it is meant to be said against the whole idey or way they think about the game 🙂 it’s like range>melee, imp>rep, cc(=$) > anything else…

Asking to Nerf all other classes doesn’t help either they will mess up the whole game and your favorite class sooner or later.

At least if they make it viable in all scenarios that would be good enough.

i’m not asking to nerf other classes, i dont really pvp at lvl 60 (cause im such a noob) so i dont care about equaling (not sure if that exist) all classes tbh.. like other classes they should have just changed one of the attacks cauterize or merciless slash with a new one at lvl 57 and not adding another longlasting dot which we never had and replace force sweep with that guardian insane-smash as long as they want us to spread dots..

“i’m not asking to nerf other classes, i dont really pvp at lvl 60 (cause im such a noob) so i dont care about equaling (not sure if that exist) all classes tbh.”

Well there’s yer problem. You are complaining about melee getting the short end of the stick, but you admit you cannot utilize the class to it’s potential.

As someone who has played melee characters for over twelve years, I can honestly say I am regularly outclassing ranged on movement heavy fights such as Torque, Underlurker, and Revanite Commanders on my Assassin, Operative, and yes, my Marauder.

It isn’t the class, it’s the people that play the class.

ohh once again you didnt get me..
– this “i’m not asking to etc…” was a response to the guy above
– for 12 years, i was playing ice-hockey(whooping-cough-ended, no JK), in tor im barely for 2 years now and i do not tryhard it and i wont tryhard it so yes – i CAN’T utilize ANY class to it’s potential
– I think that melee is a little bit behind range in this game, i’m not the only one who thinks that and this range>melee is based on what i saw in streams, read and what devs behave like and it is not based on pvp & pvp leaderboards
– you are right that its about the people.. but dont forget about the engine.. unluckily i dont have super-pc to maintain atleast 30 fps during any melee fight, actually 3sec freezes every 10secs are quite normal for me 🙁

it was fun to me, it is no more and they want to harder watch’s rotation.. i’m worried about these changes… and i’m sad that its not the pre3.0 one 🙁

The developers should make Defensive Forms a passive skill like Centering, and replace the utility with a skill similar to Unremitting to provide four seconds of immunity to knockbacks, stuns, etc, after using Force Leap. If this is too much to ask for in the utility tree, this should be a passive part of the Combat spec.

I would also appreciate a skillful or masterful utility which increases the radius of Force Sweep by a couple meters. At the very minimum, this should be a passive boost in the Watchman tree since that spec depends upon Force Sweep to spread Cauterize and Force Melt.

Zomg stop whining about melee being too hard. Tank and spank fights are BORING. If you don’t know how to play melee, it isn’t the devs fault. Sorry to burst your bubbles, but every melee class has numerous gap-closers that allow for near full uptime on every boss fight, regardless of the composition.
I refuse to subscribe to the “too many melee” excuse for failed operations. I totally subscribe to the “too many bad melee that don’t know how to play their class” excuse.

In fact, just to prove it is possible, I ran an alt ToS couple weeks back before the Lurker add nerf with 6 melee. Only one wipe on Lurker because someone didn’t get heals during a transition phase and then took the brev at the wrong time. I think I will organize another one and Fraps it for all you whiners. And maybe I will make it 12 melee this time.

Comparing your SM runs to HM progression is just plain silly. Nobody is saying melee CANT do it, some are simply saying that having a ranged for alot of the new ops fights on HM is less of a liability. Fact: On most of these boss fights, melee takes more dmg, you can’t argue this.

No one is “whining”, so freakin sick of that word being used for everything. Mara/Sent were nerfed, big time, and the two new ops are NOT friendly to Melee, neither is the new Ziost ops boss for that matter. It is why my Mara and Sent remain in hypersleep. No one wants to bring them in ops anymore.

You clearly play video games with your ego on your sleeve….glad I don’t know you in game. I would have you in ignore.

Yeah, everything is doable with melee, but most raids would rather tell a sentinel to get lost than sit there asking themselves if they are a GREAT sentinel, and it’s easy to see why. In some of the toughest fights, melee are more of a burden to the healers, and get less uptime on the boss.

Sure I have a gap closer, but I still have to hang back and wait for the “we hate melee” mechanic to pass before using my gap closer, and during that time the ranged have been happily DPSing while I have stood back and frowned, maybe tossing my sabers once.

So far so good with my marauder. I got to lv 33 easily!! I went with the carnage spec. I did die a few times, but no big deal. the saber ward and other defense thing helps.

Although I generally agree with what youre saying, sadly, there are a lot of players out there who want to charge in with one or two lightsabers and hack stuff. A lot of these players will never learn to play melee properly, but they are paying customers. For BW it’s gotta be crazy to try to balance the needs of hardcore raiders with the needs of wannabe raiders, especially since the latter group is probably the larger group.
The thing is that if they make it too hard on them, a lot of them will leave, their money included. That’s one of the reason why I was happy with Story Mode but at the same type that it meant the end of Normal Mode. It only created a bigger rift and the recent ops rav and tos showed that they couldn’t offer a balanced experience because Story Mode was too hard for casuals, especially tos. So a few nerfs to bosses have occurred, making them dead easy, at least for me. And yet I still see pugs fail on the walkers and underlurker especially. What can I say?

Maybe this can be done but you miss the point you are not focusing on the average new players.
Instead you talk about old timers that have much better skill and experience in fights with melee classes then the newbillie ones.

So the problem exists and its more obvious at the HM versions of each operation.

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As for the Set Bonus on weaponmaster, where (2) gives 2% damage increase for 15 seconds, (4) reduces valorous call for 15s, additionally activating berserk/zen gives 3% damage increase for 10s. Either change this 3% for 15s, or 4% for 10s (whereas old set version was 4% for 15s), (6) adding dual saber throw, our AoE ability to the challenger bonus is a possibility, but perhaps just add this ability additionally to zealous strike/battering assault. it last 15s, more than enough time to get dispatch/annihilation critical bonus within rotation.

One additional patch either for the sentinel/marauder class in general or part of the set bonus should be to increase precision/Gore time with at least a .5s increase, making the rotations on combat/carnage much smoother. Precision/Gore would be increased to 3.5s. I’ve learned to fit in zen/berserk + Precision/Gore + Masterstrike/Ravage + Clashing Blast/Devastating Blast within that 3s window, but even then as an experienced Sentinel I miss that window every now and then, i feel a .5s increase would be beneficial to making it so that masterstrike/ravage doesn’t have to be rushed.

As for defensives, the new patches that are coming towards sentinel/marauders seems like a good call on Bioware for the time being, since MDPS ahs been lacking in survivability. As far as buffs/debuffs goes on DPS, I’m not certain as to how it’ll play out as more defensives are given out. Again going back to my set bonus idea of buffing the (4) piece bonus similar to pre-3.0 (3% to 4% damage for 10s), it’ll be a buff for activating zen/berserk towards DPS, but otherwise nothing over-advantageous above other classes in the aspect of buffing damage output.

Keep on dropping opinions and ideas guys think Tanks all ever the place are busy trying to find the golden solution to this problem and meanwhile try no to bother the Pvp whiners.

Sound like its easier going to Mars n back with a Bicycle.

There should be a distinctive difference in PLAYING STYLE of every separate DPS, HEALER and TANK advanced class/specialization, but there should be minimum difference in COMBAT PERFORMANCE of these classes in actual PVP AND PVE, IF PLAYED WITH SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE CLASS. No adjustments for whiners and powergamers alike.

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