SWTOR Class Changes Coming with Patch 4.5

SWTOR will be making a list of class changes with Patch 4.5 coming in June.

Hey folks,

Below you will find the current list of Class changes which are coming with Game Update 4.5. These changes will not be going on PTS so we wanted to give you a heads up on what was coming. Please feel free to read over the changes and provide your feedback in this thread, I will pass it on to the Combat team.

Sith Inquisitor

  • Dark Heal now has a base cost of 70 Force (up from 55 Force) and heals for slightly more (.49%).
  • Resurgence now has a base cost of 40 Force (up from 30 Force) and heals for a bit more (4.94% for the instant heal, and 3.70% for the heal over time.).
  • Static Barrier now has a base cost of 45 Force (up from 35 Force) and absorbs slightly more damage (1.43%).


  • Dark Infusion now has a base cost of 45 Force (up from 37) and heals for a bit more (3.25%).
  • Innervate now has a base cost of 60 Force (up from 48) and heals for a bit more (4.04%).
  • Revivification now has a base cost of 75 Force (up from 60).
  • Roaming Mend now has a base cost of 65 Force (up from 50) and heals for slightly more (1.28%).
  • The healing done by Renewal has been increased (by 3.70%) to match the healing done by the heal over time portion of Resurgence.
  • Penetrating Darkness now increases your bonus healing by 3% (down from 5%)

Designer Note: Corruption Sorcerers are presently exceptional healers who outperform the other healing disciplines in the game and create unbalanced PvE and PvP scenarios. By increasing the Force costs of heals—and counterbalancing the cost increase with a slight healing boost—we are leveling the healing potential of the Corruption Sorcerer to better fit alongside other healing disciplines and combat encounters witnessed in game.

Some may wonder why we did not just increase the healing capabilities of the other healing disciplines in the game to match that of the Corruption Sorcerer. In this instance, we could not do that because all of the combat math for the game (both PvE and PvP) is balanced around the current healing capabilities of the other healing disciplines. So if we were to increase the healing capabilities of the other healing disciplines to match the healing capabilities of the Corruption Sorcerer, then healing would be more effective than intended, which would cause problems in both PvE and PvP.

We decided to increase Force costs and slightly improve the strength of individual healing abilities in this balancing initiative to prevent Corruption Sorcerers from feeling impotent following these changes. Burst healing should feel like what is on Live, yet the sustained healing experience will be notably decreased. This design lowers the average healing output of the Corruption Sorcerer to better match other healing disciplines while still allowing the Sorcerer’s individual heals to make an impact.


  • The radius of Death Field has been reduced to 5 meters (down from 8 meters).

Designer Note: Death Field’s instant AoE damage and DoT spread potential is currently too effective in PvE and PvP. We are reducing the radius to 5 meters to match all other instant damaging AoE abilities in game.

  • Parasitism now causes Affliction and Creeping Terror to heal you for 10% of the damage they deal (down from 25%).

Designer Note: Madness Sorcerer self-healing is currently too effective in PvE and PvP scenarios. We’ve reduced the life stolen by Affliction and Creeping Terror to better match the self-preservation of similar disciplines.

  • Fixed an issue where Devour allowed one Sorcerer’s Affliction effect to cause any Sorcerer’s Force Leech damage to be increased on that target.


  • The radius of Death Field has been reduced to 5 meters (down from 8 meters).

Bounty Hunter

  • Missile Blast now has a base range of 10 meters (down from 30 meters).
  • Rail Shot now has a base range of 10 meters (down from 30 meters).

Designer Note: Powertech ranged potential is currently too strong for a class that is intended to be played as a close-quarters combatant. Powertechs are melee onslaught specialists and should be encouraged to engage their targets in close proximity. By reducing the range of Missile Blast and Rail Shot, we place the Powertech’s range potential closer to its design as a close-quarters combatant and further define their unique style in various combat scenarios. Mercenaries maintain their 30 meter range through our reintroduction of “Propulsion Systems.”

  • Suppressive Tools now reduces the movement speed of targets affected by Magnetic Blast, Flame Burst, and Flame Sweep for 3 seconds (down from 6 seconds).

Designer Note: The Powertech’s suppressive potential is currently a little too impressive with the Suppressive Tools Utility. In its current iteration, players fleeing from Powertechs are far too susceptible to suffering a perpetual state of reduced movement under the effects of Suppressive Tools. To better the player experience and balance Powertech target control potential, we have reduced the duration of movement speed reduction provided by Suppressive Tools.

  • Shield Cannon now heals you for 3% (down from 5%) of your total health when damaging a target with Shoulder Cannon.

Designer Note: Powertech survivability currently surpasses the survivability of similar classes. We are reducing the effectiveness of Shield Cannon to bring the class more in line with the other tank classes.

  • Propulsion Systems has returned in a new form: Increases the range of Missile Blast and Rail Shot by 20 meters. Acquired as a level 10 passive ability.

Designer Note: Propulsion Systems has returned, granting Mercenaries a range boost alongside the new Missile Blast and Rail Shot maximum range changes to maintain their current range on Live. This additional passive preserves the Mercenary’s design as a ranged specialist on the battlefield.
Jedi Consular

  • Benevolence now has a base cost of 70 Force (up from 55 Force) and heals for slightly more (.49%).
  • Rejuvenate now has a base cost of 40 Force (up from 30 Force) and heals for a bit more (4.94% for the instant heal, and 3.70% for the heal over time.).
  • Force Armor now has a base cost of 45 Force (up from 35 Force) and absorbs slightly more damage (1.43%).


  • Deliverance now has a base cost of 45 Force (up from 37) and heals for a bit more (3.25%).
  • Healing Trance now has a base cost of 60 Force (up from 48) and heals for a bit more (4.04%).
  • Salvation now has a base cost of 75 Force (up from 60).
  • Wandering Mend now has a base cost of 65 Force (up from 50) and heals for slightly more (1.28%).
  • The healing done by Renewal has been increased (by 3.70%) to match the healing done by the heal over time portion of Rejuvenate.
  • Clairvoyance now increases your bonus healing by 3% (down from 5%)

Designer Note: Seer Sages are presently exceptional healers who outperform the other healing disciplines in the game and create unbalanced PvE and PvP scenarios. By increasing the Force costs of heals—and counterbalancing the cost increase with a slight healing boost—we are leveling the healing potential of the Seer Sage to better fit alongside other healing disciplines and combat encounters witnessed in game.

Some may wonder why we did not just increase the healing capabilities of the other healing disciplines in the game to match that of the Seer Sage. In this instance, we could not do that because all of the combat math for the game (both PvE and PvP) is balanced around the current healing capabilities of the other healing disciplines. So if we were to increase the healing capabilities of the other healing disciplines to match the healing capabilities of the Seer Sage, then healing would be more effective than intended, which would cause problems in both PvE and PvP.

We decided to increase Force costs and slightly improve the strength of individual healing abilities in this balancing initiative to prevent Seer Sages from feeling impotent following these changes. Burst healing should feel like what is on Live, yet the sustained healing experience will be notably decreased. This design lowers the average healing output of the Seer Sage to better match other healing disciplines while still allowing the Sage’s individual heals to make an impact.


  • The radius of Force in Balance has been reduced to 5 meters (down from 8 meters).

Designer Note: Force in Balance’s instant AoE damage and DoT spread potential is currently too effective in PvE and PvP. We are reducing the radius to 5 meters to match all other instant damaging AoE abilities in game.

  • Focused Insight now increases the life redistributed by Weaken Mind and Sever Force by 10% (down from 25%).

Designer Note: Balance Sage self-healing is currently too effective in PvE and PvP scenarios. We’ve reduced the life redistributed by Weaken Mind and Sever Force to better match the self-preservation of similar disciplines.

  • Fixed an issue where Mind’s Eye allowed one Sage’s Weaken Mind effect to cause any Sage’s Force Serenity damage to be increased on that target.


  • The radius of Force in Balance has been reduced to 5 meters (down from 8 meters).


  • Explosive Round now has a base range of 10 meters (down from 30 meters).
  • High Impact Bolt now has a base range of 10 meters (down from 30 meters).

Designer Note: Vanguard ranged potential is currently too strong for a class that is intended to be played as a close-quarters combatant. Vanguards are melee assault specialists and should be encouraged to engage their targets in close proximity. By reducing the range of Explosive Round and High Impact Bolt, we place the Vanguard’s range potential closer to its design as a close-quarters combatant and further define their unique style in various combat scenarios. Commandos maintain their 30 meter range through our reintroduction of “Mass Accelerator.”

  • Entangling Tools now reduces the movement speed of targets affected by Tactical Surge, Ion Pulse, and Explosive Surge for 3 seconds (down from 6 seconds).

Designer Note: The Vanguard’s suppressive potential is currently a little too impressive with the Entangling Tools Utility. In its current iteration, players fleeing from Vanguards are far too susceptible to suffering a perpetual state of reduced movement under the effects of Entangling Tools. To better the player experience and balance Vanguard target control potential, we have reduced the duration of movement speed reduction provided by Entangling Tools.

  • Guard Cannon now heals you for 3% (down from 5%) of your total health when damaging a target with Shoulder Cannon.

Designer Note: Vanguard survivability currently surpasses the survivability of similar classes. We are reducing the effectiveness of Guard Cannon to bring the class more in line with the other tank classes.

  • Mass Accelerator has returned in a new form: Increases the range of Explosive Round and High Impact Bolt by 20 meters. Acquired as a level 10 passive ability.

Designer Note: Mass Accelerator has returned, granting Commandos a range boost alongside the new Explosive Round and High Impact Bolt maximum range changes to maintain their current range on Live. This additional passive preserves the Commando’s design as a ranged specialist on the battlefield.

By Dulfy

MMO guide writer and blogger. Currently playing and covering SWTOR, GW2, and TSW.

436 replies on “SWTOR Class Changes Coming with Patch 4.5”

and still nothing about TK bugs… when will it be supercritted? or when will TK wave be repaired???

Maybe they can’t fix the current bugs and are making these changes in an attempt to show that they’re doing something?

Goodness knows they’re not responding to support tickets any more….

Nerf Operative healers??? Even more??? Why?

Erase the class at character selection maybe? Would have the same results, it’s currently the worst healer in the game…

Operative DPS is fine as is in PvP, and needs a small buff in PvE. They are a 1v1 stun/duel class that has next to no AOE and burst outdone by most other burst classes.

Oh well… It was fun while it lasted… Just last week I put a comment in a Lightning Sorcerer PVE guide regarding the optimal survivability of Madness. In that comment I stated that Madness was bound to be nerfed, since every other Force-using, self-healing class in the game had been nerfed at some point.

Well, here it is… Nerfing Madness in 4.5

lol I see your point. Healing wise, the nerf is not really a nerf. If they had decreased the healing “a bit less” or “slightly less” of all the abilities than yes. But they literally increased every ability whether it’s slightly or not.

In other words, you can still spam healing sorcs in warzones as force cost won’t affect healing output that much if there’s 2-3 healing sorcs in the match!

I will laugh if lightning makes a comeback. I still use it on my pve sorcerer for laughs while soloing.

I actually prefer Lightning to Madness, it is WAY more fun to play. Thing is Madness was great for survivability. Not so much anymore, so yeah maybe I’ll permanently switch to Lightning…

Finally a nerf to Sorc healing… I am however a bit skeptical about the “low” increases in the healing output, personally I would prefer only the force cost increases. I guess we have to wait to see its effect.
I have to add, though, that operative healing style should be changed, because in my opinion it’s the healer that suffers the most in “OMFG” situations and feels that it can do almost nothing to save the day, while sorcs and mercs can do it. But I guess this is more of an issue to fix in the next expansion.

Yep that was my point exactly. Perhaps it could have been a stronger nerf if either:

1. Normal nerf – Increase force costs without increasing so many healing abilities output

2. Hard nerf – increase force costs and decrease healing output of many abilities.

I personally think that your second point would be too much, specially considering that we usually get huge nerfs that cripple a class to the ground, so I prefer small nerfs that can be incremented if needed.

Wow I’m already having a lot of problems with my force management, constantly having to use my Force Surge stacks for Consuming Darkness and cannot use them for Revivication. Now the force cost even higher… Oh boy.

You probably think you are but probably you aren’t, or the Dulfy guide is way wrong, which is unlikely. The only way you can have force problems, is if you are healing alone in a raid that is constantly screwing up taking lots of unnecessary damage, and even then it’s not that hard to get force to heal, even though in this circumstances you will eventually fail due to lack of force.

That’s exactly what you should do, never use Force Stacks for Revivication. Also, I use Consuming Darkness EARLY, almost as soon as I get Force Stacks. It sounds as if you are using them when your Force runs really low, and the lower your resource pool, the longer it takes to regenerate. Use it earlier to maintain your resources, it might help.

No, still hanging on… Although I don’t much in the way of Ops these days, just “casual” playing lol…

how about you focus on all the fucking bugz in the game instead of fucking up the characters even more. Its been a long freaking nerf fest the whole time the game has been out. Fuck im starting to hate this game.

I main a commando, and I’m cautiously optimistic about these changes. We’ll see how they play out.

It’s probably a nerf because they also nerfed it’s area in madness. But still it’s unnecessary.

True. They did it so that it stays consistent with the Madness nerf. I think the range nerf on DF and Lacerate spread was enough though

Didn’t they change the names of the Shadow/Assassin Disciplines from Balance/Madness to Serenity/Hatred because they wanted all specs to seem “unique”? Seems like they’re always missing their own memos, being called out on it by the players, then ignoring them/sweeping it under the rug hoping we will all forget about it. Well we don’t forget, and most that have caught on have stopped paying for the game because it isn’t an MMO anymore.
If you like KotFE, Pay to Play in August and move on.

Healers are still going to be a problem in PvP until matchmaking is fixed. Imps vs imps the other day and we got zero healers while the other team got two. It’s a massive turn-off when you’ve lost the game before you’ve even started.

I don’t think this will do anything to PVP sorc healers. They are strong because survivability. Phase walk. The immortal bubble of don’t touch me. Escapability. Mobile heals. It’s still going to be simple to recover force. All this will really end up doing is giving them more burst.

Bioware is lazy and incompetent. But you wouldn’t understand, keep on getting your daily serving of ass chocolate.

You have heard of sarcasm, right? Where you say completely the opposite of what you REALLY mean???

Well I’ll just wait a week or 2 after the update and see what happens to the class representation in the top 200 PvPers.

As for the PvE side of it I’ll just see what my sorc healing raid team members have to say. Chances are it won’t actually change that much. Most likely they’ll just do what they did last time.

“oh no we increased ability cost too much and now sorc healers can’t use a rotation, here we’ll change the ability again but not go back to what it was because our changes are alwyas correct”

Wow, just when I was getting ready to come back to the game they decide to nerf my preferred class? Oh well, I guess they can do without my money. Maybe they should nerf jugg/guardian too.

Just goes to show how completely ignorant you are about how long Sage/Sorc healing has out shined all other classes and why it’s necessary. But hey, good luck clearing any challenging PVE content now… oh wait you’re most likely a pvp forum warrior or a solo mmo moron. /cheers

Good players stick to their favourite class and turn things around in their benefit. I too was flabbergasted after “the Mother of all Nerfs” to Operatives, but I stuck with it. Is it as fun to play as it was then? Absolutely not. But I can play it anytime, anywhere, and not let my group down.

The thing I can’t figure out is why Rail Shot / High Impact, as well as Explosive Round / Missile Blast got nerfed down to 10 meters. Yes, the Vanguard/Powertech got a better engage mechanic as a whole with KotFE, but having a little bit of actual ranged ability is nice from time to time.

Looks like I’ll have to find something more fun to play.

Another class, sorry. Vanguard has been my favorite for a long while because it uses just a regular old blaster rifle and, while primarily melee, had decent mid-range abilities until this recent suggested change. I might dust off my Juggernaut and wreck face with him, because if I’m going to be melee and I’m going to play Star Wars, I may as well have a lightsaber.

it was rather strange that vg/pt had so much ranged stuff, especially compared to the other two taunt classes (a saber throw on a long CD, or a pebble storm on an even longer CD)
is it only the basic attack and sticky grenade now?

you explain the reason for the nerf yourself “Yes, the Vanguard/Powertech got a better engage mechanic”, they’re much better with ranged than any other melee class
“having a little bit of actual ranged ability is nice from time to time” being advantaged over others is also nice 🙂 but the reason this got changes was because it’s not exactly fair

I personally don’t think it mattered that much that you have these 2 ranged skills, but it’s not weird that this got changed

oh look… yet another nerf to PVE because of the PVP Forum Warriors non-stop complaining…… If only they listened to all the PVE players concerns.

Concur. I have never posted to an update before, but after playing this game from the very beginning, I must. The PvP community is heard, but NOT the PvE community. It is bad enough trying to get through the most difficult HMs let alone the NiMs with the current healing mechanics of all classes. There are reasons why you take different healers for operations. If sorc/sage healers were that fantastic, then all you would need is sorc/sages for operations, but that is not the case. As for the ranged tanks being nerfed….guess they should take away the rifles and give them pea shooters. I do not understand why the developers always seem to acquiesce to the PvP community. Give them their own game and leave us PvE’ers alone.

No one cares about your HMs, they’re not relavent anymore, you should have cleared all that shit a year ago.

going with 2 sage/sorcs is often a good idea for nim ops; and yes they ARE that awesome
mando/merc is also very decent, but can be slightly weaker
scoundrel/oper is viable, depending on your group and on the fight; highest potential aoe healing, sucky ‘ow crap’ healing
mixing the strengths of different healers is nice in theory, but sometimes you just need the emergency healing from 2 sages/sorcs

this change will have most impact in pve; but also for skilled pvp healers (most people simply don’t survive long enough to run out of force, for those people this is a buff)

PvP always being prioritised over PvE is BS (coming from someone who plays in both ranked and NiM content)

there are times when pve changes will kill a class in pvp; and it’s not weird when the reverse also happens
(an example, for which I still HATE BW, is the ‘buff’ to shadow tanks, removing selfheals; it made the class less unique, and destroyed it in pvp)

Lol pve players…

get in line, we have to wait for the ERP players to enjoy their KotFE single player first.

Another nerf to Powertechs. It was bad enough when the over nerfed AP a while back. Perhaps they should look at Carnage/Combat and Arsenal/Gunnery, which are over performing for burst classes at the moment and fix Fury/Concentration.

Wait. . . what!?
The Nerf they went with was to make the Sorc’s less useful in RAIDING!!??
Bioware. . .what did we do? Please just tell us and we’ll change our wicked ways!
It’s the BUBBLE Bioware. . .the BUBBLE!!!!

I like how some of you shout that this is a pvp nerf only, and some that it’s a pve nerf.. 😛
if you’re talking about dps:
this nerf will only matter for the fights where madness is king, most fights it makes little to no difference

if you’re talking about heals:
sorcs are currently the best healers ingame, no question, a small nerf is good (though without pts we have no way of being sure that this won’t completely break us)

They seriously believe Operative/Scoundrel healer is balanced to fit the current content? I’m the first person to root for scoundrel healing, but it’s not up to par with even Commando in its present state. If it’s controlled by the right player and done right, sure it has awesome potential, and it sure has its advantages in certain fights. But as it is now, I don’t think it has a place in NiM.

Of course there will be THAT guy telling me his scoundrel/Operative healer can manage all the content. But sadly, we are not all blessed with well experienced raid teams and NiM veterans to carry the heavy weight. I want to play my scoundrel, I actually want to main it, but my raid team is starting NiM, and they are screaming for me to play Sage, and I’d much rather use my Scoundrel 🙁 Even though I’m really playing Commando as my main xD Split between 3 classes, yay?

Sorry, I know Scoundrel wasn’t directly mentioned in this post, but maybe that’s the problem :p

You have a point. In the end, no matter how much someone boasts about their exceptional abilities, you’re only as good as the crowd you’re running with.

Although I have virtually stopped doing Ops (my cool guilds are gone from the game, and I definitely won’t do PUG), I can tell you that Operative healers paired with one of the other healing classes are just fine to do NiM. If you pair with another Operative you might run into problems… But stick with it, if you like the class, play it. Don’t switch because someone else thinks you should. And, who knows? When the nerf bat comes down again on other classes, Operatives might just come out smiling… Wishful thinking… 😉

Operatives are quite fine in certain situations and definitely more than viable if paired with another class.

You should just recognize your strengths and play to them. Amazing single target sustain if you know who’s going to be taking the damage(and you should, unless your group is doing something wrong) and some of the best 5+ AoE healing potential. It is amazing in gradual burn phases if you are able to setup double KS on everyone/most people. Not very good for unpredictable phases and when your guys are disorderly/running away/losing you but that’s something they shouldn’t be and when they have to – the other healer/their cooldowns and medpacks should handle.

yeah, there’s rare times where scoundrel healers have similar healing output to either other class; but it can work for most nim fights, depending on your team, and cohealer
the biggest downside is that you can’t quickly burn heal a random target

our nim team currently runs with mando and sage (neither of them have or like scoundrels), and even with the mando we sometimes have to change it to 2 sage healers, on rare fights
the problem is that sages are best for ‘ow crap’ moments, and while progressing you will have many of those
I guess scoundrels can shine when everyone knows their stuff (as it has the highest potential sustained hps ingame)

WTF … Vanguards/Powertechs are RANGED tanks … thats the reason people like myself are playing them, playing them in the first place. Theres no reason to reduces the ranges of their attacks. Goddamnit they have RIFLES, weapons for RANGE combat.

Well, lets see:

Stockstrike as a 4 meter range, Ion Storm a 10 meter range, Energy Blast a 10 meter range, Ion Pulse a 12 meter range…

Your core abilities have a 4 to 12 meter range, if you’re tanking at all. You can’t tank at 30 meters… I think the reduction in healing from Shoulder Cannon is way worse than the range issue, but maybe that’s just me…

Um actually, you could in certain situation. It’s just that most of the time whatever you are tanking this way will just come to you. It was a unique flavor to an otherwise outclassed tank discipline considering its lack of god powerful defensive cooldowns and one that practically lost its mobility advantage with the last expansion.

Um actually I have no idea what you’re talking about. Or maybe we’re talking about 2 different things. I’m no expert Vang tank but to start tanking at 30 meters and then wait for whatever I’m tanking to come to me… All the while ignoring all the Infiltration Shadows, Vanguard Tactics or whatnot doing dmg? I would be chasing aggro like a dog chasing it’s own tail…

In any way, I still thing people are going bonkers over the wrong nerf: the nerf to Shoulder Cannon is going to be a lot more damaging to the class… Wait and see…

Yet most of their useful abilities to tanking are in melee range to their target. Just because they use a rifle or a pistol, Vanguard and PT tanks are not more ranged class than a scoundrel or operative…

These fools are concerned about the difference between healing compared to sorc / sage and what they did was increase the cost of abilities. I wonder when will do the same in a matter of damage compared to other DPS?

Making some classes fun and viable again requires effort and Bioware is having none of it. Gonna wait for that blog they’ll eventually post some time after 4.5 patting themselfs on the back or a job well done on the class issues because the hatred/serenity nerf was very much needed right.


I haven’t really done any end-game since kotfe came out, but isn’t lightning still better than Madness in both sustained and burst?

Not at all, madness fifth dps if you measure single target sustained, that is according to Bant’s theorycrafting. So madness doing quite well in that department. Burst is lower lightning, but it’s supposed to be.

I just found it strange that there was no nerf to lightning, but there was a nerf to the other two.

Lightning isn’t particularly powerful right now. It does comparable amount of damage with a comparable difficulty to Arsenal but the sorcs are a lot more squishier.

not at all powerful? this makes me giggle 😛
please keep BW convinced that lightning sucks and needs a buff, and I’ll never drop from top dps again <3

That’s not what I said. I said lightning doesn’t do more sustained dps than madness, which it doesn’t. Not saying it’s in a bad spot or needs a buff.

“isn’t lightning better?” “not at all” is why I assumed so
mind you, on most fights the potential sustained single target dps isn’t all that relevant, burst (or burst aoe) will often give lightning the edge

I would still like a buff though 😛

“isn’t lightning still better than Madness in both sustained and burst?”
Is the question asked, and the answer is no. Because it’s not better in sustained damage.

a decent lightning sorc can do massive damage in nearly all fights, has enough dps to clear nim content (without the cheating crystal, or adrenals)
and lightning is stronger than madness for about half to 2/3 of the fights last I checked (a few months back)
for most fights it’s comparable, with both specs in the sage/sorc top 5; for some fights lightning wins massively; for some fights madness has an advantage (but where madness has an advantage, lightning is also very strong)

there – u said it “top5”. keep in mind, most of the galaxy isn’t inhabited by top5 players lol. so what seems like a small fix for top5 will still feel like a nerf hammer to average and below players lol

I was talking about the difference between lightning and madness, and because most fights have both specs in top 5, they’re comparable, didn’t say anything about this nerf 🙂

I still think that this change will not do much at all for most fights, and only nerf it a little where madness has a big advantage (I think especially the more skilled players will notice the change )

Meh, the nub shadows should’ve used resilience on the nerfbat ^^
We’ll find out soon enough..

FiB is less essential for shadows btw, won’t have any real impact I think (not gonna put money on my bet though ^^)

They are making it hard for a player like me to keep going. I’m a 55 yr old that has played a long time, but with work and all its nice to log in and play an hr then off. I’m Not a great player, but I do like to try, some gets so hard for me I just give up. I still like the old way of leveling because every one could have something different and not just cookie cutter. I love SW but I’m getting close ….

ty for nerfing serenity even more, you still have a long way to go to achieve our 2.x status… keep it up bw…omg

ow fuck, a bugfix, slight selfheal nerf and a small radius nerf?! how dare they!
#sagesAreDead #ripSages

ow sorry, misread, you said serenity
tbh the range change isn’t such a huge nerf I think.. though without pts, who knows?

BW loves nerfing shadows btw, you should be used to it by now 🙂

Hey Folks,

Eric here. Please keep in mind that Biowurr is watching this page closely, as we love to steal nerfing ideas and implement them randomly into the game.

Also, in regards to the Vanguard tank nerf, we here at Biowurr have enjoyed misleading you players into believing a tank that started with a rifle, grenade launcher and multiple other ranged skills, was ever a ranged tank. That kind of duplicity is just the norm here at Biowurr, and we enjoy sharing it with the player base.

Also, Sorcs/Sages, we’ll be taking a hard look at your bubbling abilities come 4.6, word around the office is we might just remove the ability entirely, Sorcs/Sages are over powered as it is.

– Eric Mucuso
Community Nerf Engineer
Star Wars: The Indefinitely Delayed Republic
Knights of the Missing New Raid Content Empire

how dare he suggest that sage/sorc healers should be similar to the two other heal classes?!
grab your pitchforks, let’s storm BW now!!

Absolutely! Arent sorcerers and consulars supposed to the most powerful individuals in the Whole Damn Galaxy? So instead, lets make them equal to a normal person in armor because its not fair…..

OP in what? Heals? I don’t heal, I like madness and madness was inferior to lightning for long time, since maybe kotfe it’s little better than lightning but still made of paper even with those self heals and it’s not glass cannon (dps isn’t top tier), it’s glass at best.
My other chars of other classes are better than my main which is a sorc, so I don’t see this class as op, can’t tell if this is op as healer because as I said I don’t play as a healer.

i know right. i’ve been a sage / sorc for 4 years and always played healz or balance, no matter what. heck, i’ve got like…. 16 sages and 11 sorcs i think. so yeah every time they poke at me i’m like grrrrr go away BW!! cause even when their changes don’t seem bad, they ALWAYS find a way to fuck things up lol

This game became WAY TOO ridiculous,i mean they are changing EVERY class ,every 1-2 yrs.The developers doesnt have any idea about any class.Those changes must happen on earlier stage of development,not now.

Why haven’t Scoundrels gotten a buff to their dps? Isn’t it strange that other classes are being nerfed yet the sentinel/marauder dps is unchallenged in their clear superiority to all other dps classes at the moment? It makes other classes less viable, no matter how much we might enjoy playing them.

all dps classes and specs are viable in nim content.
a skilled sent/mara has higher potential dps, but will lose to other specs in quite a lot of fights.
a skilled scoundrel dps can do surprisingly good dmg as well

this nerf to dps is for ranged pt/vg (they shouldn’t be ranged at all); and for madness/balance dotspreads (which was VERY strong, and made them better than other classes in fights where this change makes any difference)
these ‘nerfs’ aren’t bad for once O.o

Scoundrel/operative got the worst AoE potential. That’s what need to be buffed for them. They aren’t viable in large multiple targets scenario, other classes need to compensate for their bad AoE. This is shown by in ruffian/lethality since the dot
spread is unreliable (got to jump after pointing the gun in the right direction otherwise you will shoot somewhere that isn’t the front) and doesn’t do much damage and for concealment/scrapper it’s just faster to single target everything than to try to AoE.

AoE potential doesn’t make a class viable or unviable for NiM
imo the best group composition is 1 very strong aoe spec, the rest single target (that’s what our team is currently using, we have shadow and mando dps, both aren’t ideal for aoe, and a tk sage, which is OP in aoe)

so what if scoundrels have close to no aoe? so what if they need to be compensated for by aoe spec? (just like a few other specs)
as long as their single target dps is viable, the spec/class is viable

I play a Madness Sorc, I think the nerf was inevitable. First, all Force-using, self-healing classes were nerfed at one point or another. Second, Madness was seriously OP!

I quote Dacri, the author of the Madness pvp guide (hope he doesn’t mind…):

“A class that can puts out quite easily 3k DPS+ 1.5k HPS at the same time is pretty overpowered. It is pretty ridiculous having a 50% heals of your total damage, and sometimes it can go up to 75%.

That is overpowered as hell.”

Well, I enjoyed while it lasted, just as I enjoyed my Watchman or my Serenity Shadow. Time to go back with the rest of the crowd…

yup, balance was OP in pvp, has been since 3.x ^^
I was surprised the nerfs on serenity didn’t nerf balance as much, but guess your luck couldn’t last

the only downside to balance is it’s force issues on long fights (I personally would spec lightning if I needed to do serious ofhealing)

madness was/is great for fights where the healers have trouble though, loved it ^^

Nope, if you read before it mentions:
Missile Blast now has a base range of 10 meters (down from 30 meters).

Rail Shot now has a base range of 10 meters (down from 30 meters).
Mandos will keep it at 30m which is already is now, but untill you gain the utility it will be 10m.

So yes i read about a sorc running out of force once, cant remember where excactly..
These changes have to do with ranked leaderboard check those and u understand why…
My quess is that defs got bored with the magic 4 abbility no skill required sorc play and r goin back to warrior, this would explain the rediqulous buff jugs get from bolster atm

“bluh bluh bluh…we think our game is shit so we change stuff all the time to make you think we actually care and we just cant stand your bitching.” thats all i read…Why does my gameplay have to change everytime the pvp guys have their period? …

Even without the distasteful misogyny your post makes no sense. (fyi women have one hormonal cycle, men have five) Adjusting a class so that they aren’t OP compared to other classes is a good thing.

last class change was quite a while ago, and this change has more impact on pve anyway (for the sage/sorc changes at least, vg/pt is for both)

they need to blame something, and everyone loves blaming either pvp, or BW, or preferably both
doesn’t matter if the changes have more impact in pve, or that pve changes sometimes kill a class in pvp
(looking at you now shadow tank ‘buff’, which destroyed shadow tanks)

Maybe because in most case nerf happen because of PVP? Read forum a little, you will find that many spec was nerfed not because “Oh no, we killing boss too fast”, but because “This spec killing me faster in PVP”. Same was with Deception. This spec was fine, but because of PVP the burst capacity of this spec was nerfed.

cause that’s how it looks to ppl like me. You know something I don’t? go ahead im all ears

Whomsoever holds this nerfhammer, should they care nothing about bug fixes, shall possess the power of bio ware!

Wait. They reduce the force cost of pretty much all those healing abilities in 3.whatever to tie in to the reduced force regen that Consuming Darkness does, and now they’re upping it again? I mean I get that Sorcerers are powerful but that just seems redundant and moronic. When you implement changes and then go back on them 3 or 4 times in a year, like they have done in this instance, it clearly shows that you haven’t the slightest idea how to balance your fucking game. Furthermore the Madness change to Death Field is stupid, but what’s even more moronic is their reasoning. Not one person that has even remotely touched PvE in this game has looked at Death Field and thought, “Fuck. That’s overpowered. BioWare should nerf that. Now let’s go wipe on some operations bosses cause I’m bad and think that Death Field range on a sorcerer is overpowered.”

Fact is these are PvP changes. And I’m all for PvP changes. Sorcerers are fucking insane in PvP. But be honest with the reasoning. Death Field range is getting gimped because of the implications in PvP, not PvE. The healing changes, while understandable from a PvE standpoint, are again clearly more geared towards PvP.

In that we come to the crux of the problem. Balancing this game for both modes together instead of treating them as entirely separate entities, which they are. And with the addition of a personal focus, while leveling or exporing, for both PvE and PvP planetwide instances I had hoped that they’d start getting smart with this. But in typical fashion BioWare Austin takes the sledgehammer to this fucking game instead of the scalpel.

The classes should not be carbon copies of one another, but more and more that’s what it feels like they’re trying to do. Homogenize everything, and at that point you might as well just have one class instead of eight.The more I look at what they’re doing the more I question their sanity, and mine. Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. I keep hoping that they’ll get their heads out of their collective asses, but time and again they don’t. Maybe I’m just insane.

Change range on Death Field for radius. It’s late and I got all fucked up on that.


these changes aren’t ‘just pvp changes’
the dotspread on madness makes them one of the best specs in fights with multiple targets, smaller radius will make it slightly harder to use, and for some fights will stop you from dotspreading (eg, UL, spreading between 2 adds and the boss)

sage healer is currently the best healer in both pve and pvp, no question about that. (and it’s a visible/big difference)

this change will have most impact on pve, but will also impact the more skilled pvp healers (as you simply don’t survive long enough to get low on force if you’re not skilled)

I agree this isn’t the best way to balance the sage healer, but unless you have a better idea, whining about ‘ow noes, my pve balance is affected by pvp, ow dear’ is just as silly imo 🙂

The best idea honestly would be to balance out the game and treat PvP and PvE as two separate entities, which they already are with focuses and warzones. But they won’t partly because it might end up confusing members of the playerbase when you have a class that plays one way in one aspect of the game and differently in another, but mostly because they can’t be fucking bothered. It’s easier to just nuke everything from orbit and clean up afterwards. At this point I doubt they have enough people on staff to balance both aspects of the game properly which is why we see what we end up seeing.

Even if these changes are good for the game, which I am skeptical of but let’s give them the benefit of the doubt for a second, not testing them on the PTS to protect a precious story leading to a multitude of fuck ups server side and balance side is not a good way to handle it. But to counter my own point they’ve shown that they don’t listen to player feedback anyway as it pertains to the sorcerer/sage changes that came in 3.xx as it pertains to healing so we (me, I’m) are right back at square one.

Again, as for the Madness/Balance change it will literally be meaningless in PvE outside of a few fights that you pointed out, such as Underlurker, which makes Lightning preferable. It is mostly, meaning almost purely, a PvP change for maps such as Novare Coast, Voidstar, and Hypergates. Which is fine. I get why they’re doing it. I however do not like the disingenuous reasoning behind it. If they came out and said, “Hey guys. People were bitching about Death Field and Force in Balance being to good in PvP, and after reviewing it it is kinda bullshit on these maps so we’re changing it,” I’d be fine with that even if I would still rather see them balance both modes individually. But saying that Madness/Balance are performing to good in PvE when every single top parse on parsley is a Marauder or Sentinel is just fucking dumb. Reducing the Shoulder Cannon heal for the tank spec of a class it piss poor defensives is fucking dumb. Not testing this on a PTS is, once again, fucking dumb.

I’ve heard that idea before, but I disagree with it’s practicality
there are technical difficulties from completely changing the function of abilities depending on the Pv style
some issues I can think of right now:
how to treat openworld pvp, as pve or pvp?
how to treat openworld pvp areas, where you also fight pve mobs, as pve or pvp?
if you treat fighting mobs as pve, what do you do when you fight companions? or both players and mobs?
for example the radius of FiB; this would be near impossible to change only when hitting players, and not for npcs

unless you take the easier approach of only counting warzone instances as pvp

the only abilities I remember that has/had different effects in pvp than in pve is guard (which is easy to implement, it checks the origin of the dmg, if it’s a player it’s redirected; this is also true if the player is yourself; lava will get redirected with guard)
taunt (also relatively easy to implement, check target type, then apply specific debuff)
smashmonkey crit (this is where I think we hit the limitations of player vs npc checks; this applied autocrit+extra surge on npcs, but not players)
60second cc (also ez)

I personally doubt it’s all that easy or smart to completely change the behaviour of abilities when entering pvp zones
also for the reason you mentioned: it’ll get bloody confusing
saying “bw is just lazy” feels a bit ignorant to me 🙂

They have player focuses now so it’ll be a lot easier to implement than before I feel. If you’re in a warzone or PvP Focus for a planet then the PvP balance takes effect, if you’re in a PvE Focus on a planet, Flashpoint, Operation, etc then the PvE balance takes effect. Like you said they’ve done it differently for Guard, Taunt, Crits, and I think a couple other things. Maybe it’s a lot harder than I think it is and it’s literally impossible to do in this game. Fine. But they should then get ahead of the messaging on this. I’m far from the first person to suggest they treat the two modes separately and I’ll be far from the last if they continue to ignore people saying that’s how they should do it.

Also BioWare is lazy. It isn’t ignorant. It’s repeatedly been shown. If they aren’t lazy then they’re ignorant and they continually show a level of contempt for their player base that makes me question why people give them money.

Think you can reply to this comment without coming across as a condescending cunt at the end of it this time? 🙂

Sorry, didn’t mean to sound condencending (guess I should leave comments alone when I’m tired :P)

I meant that suggesting that the only reason this isn’t implemented, is because BW is lazy (they are lazy, but there’s more reasons)
People would whine that if pvp is stronger than pve openworld, they’re ‘forced’ to go pvp focus

I personally don’t think that big differences between pve and pvp abilities is possible (and super confusing), but I’m not an expert with this engine

BW doesn’t like talking, even if that would stop people asking for this (they won’t stop)

In the end though, I’m not sure if splitting balance in 2 would be a great idea..
It might be easier to balance everything together (keeping capabilities balanced will keep both pve and pvp balanced), while splitting it up basically gives you double the work
It’s a trade off, not sure which is better..

Ow, and because this is the internet: are you fucking dumb you idiot?! Just l2p and stop whining.. (jk obviously ^^)

regarding these balance changes:
I agree it should go on pts, and don’t like the fact that it isn’t
I /think/, these changes /may/ be good (especially small nerf to balance/madness), but I’m not sure, as I can’t try it out

it won’t be meaningless in PvE, it will reduce the amount of adds you can hit with FiB/DF, so you will have less aoe dmg, thus less dps; but ONLY in fights where balance/madness shines (massive aoe fights, where stuff survives quite long)

I personally don’t think the size change is really the big of a difference in pvp, but that might just be me/my personal opinion, guess we’ll find out
the reasoning is fine, but it’s not any reason why they’d change it in patch 4.5 instead of 1.0.1 😛

single top parse in what? dummy parsing?
dummy parsing is irrelevant, it only shows potential sustained single target dps; nearly all fights have downtime, many have adds, a lot of them have burst phases
sent is great when you can just sit on a boss, but madness has the huge benefit of having range; and in heavy aoe fights, it DOES outperform many other classes (not enough to require a nerf imo, but it is strong)

BW doesn’t like tanks having selfheals, they showed it clearly when they killed (ow sorry, I mean buffed) shadow tanks -_-
giving shoulder cannon 2% selfheals within the tankspec, and 3% in the utility would be best imo (heavy defences aren’t meant for dps imo)

exactly. and well. let’s face it – for top players it won’t be a big loss, but most of the in-between people will get hit pretty bad again. cause for sure a lot of people have issues with lag, or computer, or whatever. so not that many overall can make their toon get the absolute best dps possible. and those guys that really suck will still suck no matter what lol.

That is the underlying truth beneath all this discussion, isn’t it? Top players will get around all this stuff, study the classes they play (because they love them) again and move on with their business.

The FOTM people, they will bitch and wine, roll another FOTM class and level it to Endgame, until a time BW decides it’s nerf-hammer time again, and the cicle will start all over again…

I haven’t played for a while, so help me here please… After the op/scoundrel nerfs, the merc/mando nerfs and now the sorc/sage nerfs, which is the best healer class in the game this time? mara/sent, right?

Overall healing strength goes up roughly 3%, the overall force cost goes up around 30%. So the healing output per force point goes down. Also you need to regain force sooner now and you can cast fewer skills between energy regain moments and it does take a cooldown each time to regain force so this also limits the amount of times you can cast healing skills. Mathematically the only conclusion can be that this is a nerf, perhaps it’s deserved, but there is no escaping the numbers.

they just putting force management back into the class… isn’t too hard, we used to have to do it, not so much recently, tbh… I’m looking forward to having to think about it again – its a vague nerf, very vague

I think the effect of this will be bigger in pve than pvp, but that the bigger problem is currently in pvp. That seems ironic at best. I don’t see at all that there shouldn’t be a nerf, but it still is a nerf.

Well, no, they never specified pvp. The Sorc/Sage heals are harmful in pve too. Not to a group but it lowers the incentive to bring other classes as heals. I mean, really, can you honestly tell me that you haven’t seen the vast difference in number between how many Sorc/Sage ops healers there are and how many of the other two there are? I mean, why bring two average classes when you can bring two copies of an over performing one?

I play all 3 healing classes and happy with them. Just dont like when they get nerfed.

They’re all viable, problem is that for harder content, sages are much more viable than the others (not an extreme difference, so I hope this nerf turns out to be small)

i seem to always have much more luck healing in a group that has a mando/sage or scoundrel / sage composition not just 2 sages 😛 esp in the harder ops. so double stacking is still not the best idea if your other healer is a moron ;P

I was assuming equal skill ofc 😛
Our nim team goes with mando+sage atm, works well on most fights, but there a few special cases where we prefer double sage (going double sage means we lose dps, which is why we avoid it where possible)
Example is scum warlords nim, our mando couldn’t deal with the random targeted heavy burst, which went smoothly with double sage
I personally prefer mixed healers though, more enjoyable

i dunno lol, i have been a sage crazy person for like 4 years now, and so i still remember the times when double sages sucked more than double scoundrels now lol. so any time people try to make me heal with another sage that i don’t know i’m like: “nope, ain’t gonna happen” lol. i guess i knew the OP easy mode wouldn’t last lol. the balance changes though, i know it ain’t much, but with my 500+ms ping even a little will still hurt lol x.x so yeah i’m blaming whiny pvpers to make myself feel better lol

Lol, enjoy the blaming :p
and all 3 classes have a downside when going double on them
idiot sages putting shields on me dammit :p
Mando probes not stacking
Scoundrels lacking emergency heals

the scoundrel thingies are easier to keep track on now actually, since you can track your own ^^

Double scoundrels going full aoe healing though.. omg
Think that might actually work for some fights :p (about 12k hps each, maybe even more)

Tl;Dr scoundrels are unique in not actively lowering cohealer’s potential hps when going with double, nerf scoundrels 😀

they ALWAYS do that though….. well not really… but every time they change sorcs it always feels that way. this time it’s not exactly a nerf, for healz at least…. but well, madness / balance never did as much dps as the vang/pt and yet…….. the shadow/sin change is just retarded to be sure

Try again, I prefer smuggler/operative…but the sorc/sage just beats them in the dust no matter what.
These changes are retarded because it isn’t the healing power that is the issue here, but rather the mechanics which makes the sorc/sage so allround powerful.

I appologize for my previous comment. I wrongly assumed you believed that sorcs were getting nerfed too hard, not the other way around. It was a pretty dumb assumption looking back at how your post was worded, and i do agree that sorcs will still be somewhat OP after the nerf.

Try again.
If you have a tight knitted group who know what they’re doing, then healing is easy-peasy….going in a HM pug with semi-attentive people running all over the place…have fun.

Kinda lame. They can’t up the other healing classes because it would make healing better than they intended? What is it now? 8 months post 4.0 and only 1% of raid groups can take down all the hard mode ops?

Ops went from Story/Hard/Nightmare to basically baby mode/Hardmare

Raiders are leaving in droves due to the impossibility level and utter lack of anything new in 18 months and what do we get? Nerfs to a healing class because upping the others puts them where they weren’t intended? Hard modes are intended to be damn near undoable for 99%?? (FWIW, i don’t count EV and KP in that. They might be actual hard modes, but they’re substantially easier than the other 5. It’s not even close.

TFB and SnV are not super hard either, as long as you can get a group that can make the dps check on Styrak. DF and DP have 1 boss each that is a dealbreaker for most groups, and then Rav and ToS are supposed to be harder than others, since they are the last ones released (Master and Blaster could definitely use a nerf), so I don’t think it’s that crazy. Everyone loves a good challenge anyway. They could nerf Corruptor Zero (perhaps even Brontes) and Beastia though.

Styrak is bull**it for a 2-2-4 group.. as long as you dont go 4sents/maras its hard AF.. 1-2-5 group its easier but still REALLY chalenging and i think we have decent group form HM ops.. EV, KP, SaV, TfB, DF down, DP4/5, ToS 4/5, Rav 3/5, EC only 1st bcs of implant…

I don’t see a point in doing Styrak with a 2-2-4 setup though, nowadays most tanks have dps sets and can respec in less than a minute, so that the group can clear Styrak HM. Or at least they should. We have cleared Styrak HM, but we appear to have more issues with Rav and ToS and Brontes in DF HM.

If you can clear it with 2-2-4 it has it perks. Mainly, it’s possible for a tank to get in nightmare, which is easily solved with two tanks, but a bit of a problem with one.

yes thats true (if you have stable group why not..) but honestly i think that styrak is wrongly scaled.. i dont remember that it was such a dps check back @ L55 with a mix of 168/180 gear it was easily doable for our group 2-2-4 🙂

btw Revan is complete tralala 😀

We are talking about HM here. With the infamous mine mechanic (plus a significant amount of damage by the add droids, which needs to be contained), a mechanic that has caused most guilds to spend a lot of time wiping on this boss. At least more than other bosses.

You can’t stack on the boss all the time, a) because of the red circle which stuns you and b) because people have to kill adds. Yes, you could have 4 rdps and no melee, but even so, this boss is significantly harder than any boss on DP and first 3 bosses of DF. Only Brontes is harder. I am not saying it’s impossible, it’s just a boss where most people have an issue with.

honestly i haven’t had problems with C-0 since before it was lvl 55 lol. the only reason pugs have issues with it is because some of them do not get the concept of stack in a corner to LoS the adds or watch ur feet, or etc, etc, etc. and it’s not most people for sure, just really super casual or super bad people lol

DF HM was lvl 55 when it came out, not sure what you mean by that. The only reason pugs have a problem with CZ is because it’s harder than the 3 previous bosses, it’s really simple.

bad wording lol. and honestly, i’m pretty sure my group used to have more problems with draxus than corruptor 0, as far as i recall at least. even Grob is harder if you don’t have 2 very good tanks. Nefra and C-0 are by far easier than the other 3 lol. but hei, that’s just my opinion from pugging these since 4.0

Still… Why mines are infamous mechanics? Don’t wants to ruin your attitude but C-0 is the easiest one on DF HM (I don’t count Nefra because it’s just trash boss). Even Draxus is more complicated than C-0.
Also DP on HM isn’t really challenge at all…
Just don’t understand why new ages players only moaning ” to difficult, infamous etc” Wth?
Advice: All that crying and moaning new ages players just learn your class and I assure you there will be nothing what can surprised you in this game.

I am not sure if you understand the meaning of the word infamous, but it’s probably not what you think it means. In this context, it was not used as “moaning”. And I did not moan at any point, I personally have 4/5 on both DF HM and DP HM, so I’ve killed CZ.

Draxus is more complicated (with 9 phases LOL) but it doesn’t hit that hard. As long as people interrupt the mass affliction cast and know which adds are supposed to kill in which order, it’s not that hard. Nefra and Grobthok are almost tank and spank, so yeah, CZ is harder.

I have seen you comment many times about the difficulty of operations and how people “complain”, but to me it just seems you are somewhat of an elitist. I didn’t complain at all about any difficulty btw, I was just expressing my opinion about the various operations, the whole discussion started with Styrak HM.

>These changes will not be going on PTS so we wanted to give you a heads up on what was coming.

So in other words, we’re not going to take the time or the opportunity to make sure these changes actually work. And if and when they break….

sigh I really hate the nerf to maddness spec. I feel it really needed the extra survival ability to not suck

kitting and positioning is OP (not trying to be elitist, but it really makes all the difference)

Same, hating that they plan to nerf already mediocre/weak class…would be fair if sorcs were still squishy but with uber dps and crits…but no, sorcs just suck sadly (not saying about corruption/healers).

It’s about time. I may start playing the game again, though it’s probably too little too late right now.

How nice. People pitch a fit because they cannot kill a sorcerer so they nerf the class……again. Perhaps ye poor sods getting rolled by sorcereres in PVP could do something you scream at everyone else playing it. Learn maybe?

Mate, don’t act all high and mighty as if it takes so, so much skill to play a madness sorc these days. The fact that I see 3-4 on a team during 80% of my games speaks volumes on how OP this class is.

Yeah, and then you pvp types will be bitching an moaning about how this other class is too op because they keep rolling you. Same crap, different year. Not doing the high and mighty thing ‘mate’, tired of pvp fucking up my game experience. Funny how I’ve never seen a pve player saying “Damnm that ‘insert class here’ killed that boss way too fast, gotta nerf it.” ALWAYS the pvp crowd having a fit.

Nope. As someone who does both, PVE’ers do it too. Remember last year when they weren’t even letting Maras and sentinels join op groups because the class was under performing? Same equivalent as pvp class bitching.
Or then theres the “Waaaa TOS is too hard”. “Waaa ravagers is too hard” No one can admit there guild just sucks at it. And then a decent chunk of them cheat at those ops and get banned. GOLLY GEE, i wonder why they haven’t made new ops this expansion. Bunch of lil bitches they is lol

Dear Eric Mucus, Please do the world a favor and go jump into a volcano whilst shoving your own head up your ass. And to all you people at Biofail and E$A. I hope you all die of ghoneria and ebola.
Love yours truly the laughing Sorc

“So if we were to increase the healing capabilities of the other healing disciplines to match the healing capabilities of the Corruption Sorcerer, then healing would be more effective than intended, which would cause problems in both PvE and PvP.”. And this is for all the OP classes.

Not talking about heals only, but dps too. Currently, mercs sucks so hard, they could use a hug.

Lol, you are right! Well that reason can be used about dps. Devs nerf every class, instead of power up them trying to reach the utopy of an all class balance…

Question for Dulfy and all those who work so hard posting guides.
I’d like to see Commando guides. I’ve searched and there no guides for Commando (PVE, PVP, DPS, Heals). Thanks all!

Hey, if anyone on the Dev team is reading this; you’re a bunch of assholes. VG/PT is already a close 10m only class with our ENTIRE rotation. So thanks for being so helpful and knocking the one good thing we had to 10m. *applauds* Oh! And thanks for the healing reduction, because sage/sorc can’t pop barrier and heal for 3/4 their entire health while being invincible. amirite?

“So thanks for being so helpful and knocking the one good thing we had to 10m” you’re forgetting thermal detonator, rapid shots, and explosive dart, the last of which will refresh the bleed from retractable blade if you’re for some reason reason stuck at range. Combine this with hydraulic override and jet charge and if you play properly the range nerf should be a near non issue in fights.

I never really stated that rapid shots is as good as rail shot, though i guess i didn’t go out and directly say that that wasn’t what i believed. Between thermal det, which is a good replacement to rail shot, and explosive dart, which isn’t amazing but does refresh the DoT for AP, and gap closers+ghosting, you shouldn’t be stuck using rapid shots all that often. On the offchance you are stuck out of range for too long though, with the other 30m abilities on CD, rapid shots is still a better ability to use than nothing.

Maybe becaus3, Biofail staff are getting nerf. And alot of raiders are leaving or left. Biofail nerfing classes for the sake of it.

Isnt this Star Wars? Are all classes supposed to be balanced? Saying one classes skills are OP so we nerfed them is like telling us Jar-Jar isnt as powerful as Sidious, it’s not fair, so we took his power away. It’s not fair because one is a Sith Lord and the other is an idiot? You create a trooper knowing it shouldn’t be as powerful as a Force user, why is this supposed to be not fair? Isn’t this how things are supposed to be? Does SWTOR have a Equal Opportunity Employment Act that i don’t know about? I’m so confused…..

By that you mean that everybody should roll a Force-user, because all the other classes should be inferior? Yes it’s Star Wars, but it’s a game, there has to be some kind of balance. Why should Troopers be less viable than a Jedi? Your argument doesn’t stick, I’m afraid…

So, a republic trooper should be able to go toe-to-toe with say….Nihilus? If you say yes then im not sure where else to go and am even more confused than i was before…..

No more than a gizka should go toe to toe with the Emperor himself. But you are comparing the incomparable, we’re talking classes here, not hypothetical scenarios. The classes that make up the game, be it pve or pvp, have to get some kind of balance, or else BW should just do ONE class at character creation and be done with it…

If the game was designed after his ideas, then everyone would be a Force-user or a Sniper (because 1765m 360° quick-scope) or a Commando because Mortar Volley.

Well, i gotta say TOR having an Equal Opportunity Employment Act was pretty damned good, made me laugh… In a good way. 🙂

This is what i needed to hear to understand, not being a fan of MMO’s this is my first one and i was giving it a comparison to games like KOTOR and its not that game, its a completely different kind of game and now i get it. Thanx 😉

with pure rpg I will agree with you. But its mmo. It will be boring if we will have only force user classes. In mmo all classes should be balanced, it will be no point in creating other classes if they will be useless in gameplay/pvp

It’s an MMORPG so they don’t have to be compelety balanced PVE wise it’s only in PvP that it becomes needed more depending on what kind of PvP mode it is and this is why balancing needs to be done seperately for both PVE and PvP like they do in aMMORPG called Gw2. What kind of MMO it is matters being an MMO doesn’t mean automatically needs to be completely balanced what genre it is still matters as well.

My point was why will I want another class in pve/pvp if I will be able to use a better one and will lose nothing doing so? Bioware could as well create only Jedi /Sith characters, it’s not like any other class can beat them lore friendly. Will it be the same game if they will do so? No. For me balance is the most important thing in such games

Well, why would you roll a class that you KNEW was going to under-perform? Seems a no-brainer to me…

Because ‘performing’ is what I do at work. It is not what I am aiming to when I want to play a game. Hence, a fear of ‘under-performing’ is not at all part of my considerations when choosing a class.

Oh ok… But how is it when you want to do Endgame stuff??? You know, when you actually reach level cap? Would you play a class that people didn’t want to play with in pvp Ranked??? Would you play a class people that were doing Ops would NOT take with them???

Because, you , know, that IS what would happen. It DOES happen. I’m no pvp expert, but for instance if a class doesn’t pass a dps check for a certain Boss in an Ops… People won’t take you. PERIOD.

I mean, if you only care about playing the story you could roll ANYTHING. No “considerations” there.

But for Endgame… Oh boy that would be a treat wouldn’t it? Choosing an under-performing class that all the Endgame players would IGNORE…

And please, don’t answer by saying that you don’t care about Endgame and only want to play the story. I would have to lump you in with all the people that only care about themselves and care absolutely NOTHING about others or the game in general, and only THEIR playing experience counts…

Like I said above in an RPG every role has something to offer and contribute to a raid or group activity period that’s how each class is developed with a role in mind to keep every class relevant during those group activities. It’s only in PvP that this changes and becomes more of an issue with everyone wanting the best. PVE and PvP in RPGs have different playstyles and needs and that is why they need to be addressed seperately so that both work.

Because in PVE that happens a lot in RPGs its called role playing it’s only in PvP that players start to only and always want the best only. In PVE every role has something to contribute to a raid or any group content period.

Actually PVE wise and fact that it’s an RPG makes it very possible given the role system in RPGs the only reason it’s not completely the case is because of PvP not being separated from PVE balance wise. They continue to try and balance the game to the point that all classes are equal to make PVPers happy but it will never happen because it’s still an RPG and built that way.

Actually, I recall when the game was in development, BW said that some classes wouldnt be able to beat certain other classes in a fair fight because, and I quote: “Han Solo wouldn’t be able to defeat Darth Vader in a 1 on 1”

You forget that this is an MMO. There are 2 reasons that classes will never be balanced in an MMO. First of all, class imbalance is a tool they can use to make certain classes more or less popular. This is for balancing how many characters of each class we make or how often certain specs are played. Secondly there are class abilities that you cannot really objectively compare. How does stun abilities compare to stealth or speed boosts? All of them make a class more effective, but how much and under which circumstances? It is my belief that even if they really wanted to make classes balanced in any pvp or pve circumstance, I don’t actually think they can. If you wonder why BW makes certain strange nerfs like say the last nerf on MM, go back to reason 1.

lightsaber’s have been under powered since launch. blaster’s have always been stronger.

For cannon sake, yes. Jedi and Sith should be more powerful than non force users. To stay true to what Star Wars is and has always been, Force users (good or bad) should be far more powerful than everyone else. Not unkillable, just considerably more powerful.

If we wanted to be realistic, than for example Sith Warriors should get lightning too, and Sorcerers choke, etc etc.

This MMO class thing is a really unrealistic game mechanic, nothing more.

Classes in any MMORPG or RPG period aren’t suppose to be all equally the same for example healers aren’t suppose to be better at tanking then tanks and vice versa with healing. Roles are suppose to have their strengths and weaknesses and not be completely balanced or equal as its suppose to be in a PvP mode in other genres like shooters for example. That’s why in anything that is an RPG no matter MMO or not group PvP is always a must this way each role can shine in that battle at what their good at and have something to contribute to the battle and 1v1 would not be fun nor work due to how RPGs work class wise and its role system period. So this thing with trying to make every class completely balanced to point that their equal would never happen nor work in an RPG given how it works because it wouldn’t be an RPG at that point.

Or you could just make the merc healer back to how it was with friendly fire instead of the stupid kolto shot. That alone would make merc healers better. I mean you guys nerf’d the hell f merc healers like 1-2 years ago badly enough to make me hate the class.

^^ This right here. Damned right mate! Why, oh why did they do that is beyond my wildest guess. Kolto Shot is freaking stupid!!! They could have nerfed the friendly fire thing as they did, just keep the godamned move as it was! Not to mention, every time I do that my Merc, who is supposed to be a badass, finishes off with that retarded “whazup” thing that I HATE!!!

My class heals one ally more than another? Nerf it. Doesn’t matter that it heals groups worse than your char or is much squishier.
Honestly they should make the classes be on equal(ish) terms by making them more
distinctive. Your merc should be better than my sorc in some situations.
Since they’re unable to do that, Bio should just force us to use one class. You can be a force wielder who mostly just uses blasters and heavy armor like in the kotor games :p. That way we won’t have to suffer when class A gets nerfed so that every class can have roughly the same damage/healing output and have abilities that do roughly the same things, because right now that seems to be the only system Bio can manage.

it seems the developers are making this game worse by releasing messed up patches. too many bugs with each patch in some way, shape or form. Also the free to play is way too restricted imho. this game ain’t worth no monthly subscription let alone a recurring one.

thats’ true. I also did have another concern is that why are they now like restricting the abilities of the characters? Like with this upcoming patch, the range of damage from these characters are now limited to the point of being ineffective against anything it seems like. why are they doing that for? they should leave things alone as they are.

That’s not entirely true there will still be restrictions as you all you get out of subbing will be the expansions free after subbing and become preferred status of course but that happens after you make any purchase either way and which still has restrictions btw just to lesser extent then f2p status. Best way to play the game fully and get all perks including sub only ones is to play game as subscriber if you try swtor as all three you easily realize how much better and fuller the experience is in swtor as a subscriber and won’t want to play swtor any other way. You don’t have to take my word for it just try playing swtor each way and see for yourself. Any swtor vet will tell you the same as mostly all who are dedicated and know better are subscribers if they can afford it.

Yeah, I hear BW are worried about their AoE abilities, a nerf is in the making… No more grenades or cone attacks that do such MASSIVE damage!!! looool

When it comes to nerfs, no news to me is good news… If they touch my Engineering Sniper I will be EXTREMELY pissed off lol…

Sniper engineering spec will be removed and replaced with pvp Loo-Hoo-Zuh-Her spec. So now when you get beat in a pvp match you can blame it on the new spec. D’oh!

I quit pvp even BEFORE starting playing the game 🙂

Clueless about pvp… but more power to them, I actually think it’s more difficult than pve…

Agreed, PVP is a learned skill. its the cheaters who ruin it. (answer for cheaters below)

Balance changes done for PvP effects PVE as well so you should be concerned regardless if you don’t PvP because their unversal meaning all balance changes effect both PvP and PVE the same and aren’t done seperately like it is in GW2 for example.

Just wait until a pvp type starts screaming how OP your class is. It happens, keeps happening, and will continue. I am finally done I think.

Yep it’s all about PvP who cares if PVE suffers in the process they will get over it maybe even spend more money in cartel market on top of it right.

It’s always the easiest answer that’s for sure and that’s why they do it versus actually fixing it the right way.

Yeah, even when I just played though the smuggler story, I always felt weak as shit. Bowdaar had to do all the work while i shot at rubberbands at the bad guys.

I’ve only been playing SWTOR since 3.0, and the only healers I’ve played as are the agent and the sorc so take what I say with a grain of salt :P. Wasn’t it Bio’s vison post 3.0 to have the classes be distinctive? It didn’t matter that I could heal more with my sorc because I was less efficient at healing groups than my agent is.
Looking at a bunch of numbers and deciding class A is too strong undermines the original vision because then next month class B is too strong and it gets nerfed, and then the cycle repeasts endlessly.
While the launch of the expansion has made the game less tedious its also messed up the difficulty scale. Want to learn your role? Join a clan and hope they’re nice people who have the time to teach you. Else you need to hope that the pug group is nice (it can often be nice) and that you can survive the trial by fire
I kind of feel that Bio should stop copying the WOW model and divorce pvp from pve, perhaps by making skills different in pvp or through global buffs.
. On the other hand the expansion made me realise that ops weren’t that scary and that even the hardest content is less frustrating than pugging. We may not be able to do the hardest of the hard content (we have managed sometimes) but doing stuff with people you know is a lot easier than doing it with pugs who don’t ask for help and just blindly do their own thing. Except the game never incentivised them to learn how to tank or dps properly 😐

Oh I almost got back to swtor after a long break since their last screw-up named 4.0 – but thanks BW i won’t have to spend my money on this game anymore! Yay! #brightside

They continue this bs and they’ll lose a lot more people then what they lost after 4.0 and then brightside will be the one missing everyone and their minuscule contributions because of how much of a barren wasteland swtor became lol.

Hilarious… Sorcs get a buff basically – can’t wait to see the heal numbers play out – tweek rotation and gear and I will bet this does not resolve the issue in the least and will most likely make it worse

That was my first thought, too. They decided to nerf sorcs… by making their heals stronger.

Unless the energy cost is made so bad that it leaves the sorc totally unable to heal at some points during the fight, I can’t see how this won’t result in even bigger numbers for the average progression raiding sorc healer.

I guess we’ll see, though!

(And yeah, I know the change was probably for PvP and not PvE, because almost every change is? But I have no frame of reference for good PvP matches because PvP in this game is ridiculous and unbalanced no matter what they do, so I have never seen or even heard of a good warzone match.)

One thing that would really improve the game is having 3 level difficulties to choose from. Each mission should offer easy, hard & advanced modes. A player would start the mission, watch the cut scene and then be offered their 3 difficulty modes. when reaching level 65 in all advanced mode would give special rewards to the player. “must be a sub for advanced mode of course”. 🙂

That’s fair, though the spec he was in is arguably the easiest spec in the game to play, though i suppose the KotFE story isn’t an ideal place to learn it 😛

Playing a new character you don’t know very well in front of 1000 people on twitch… that took guts. or stupidity. :))

He didn’t do Jack SQUAT!
I don’t care about gear, or Sage vs Commando, or any of that. There is an obvious lack of skill and knowledge of the class and of PvP/Dueling on Musco’s part here. He fired a single ability then ran. No one who has played a second of PvP would have followed him… I’m the WORST part time PvPer ever and I coulda bested Musco… Sucktastic.

“Powertech survivability currently surpasses the survivability of similar classes. We are reducing the effectiveness of Shield Cannon to bring the class more in line with the other tank classes.”

It isn’t even funny…

Keywords “Powertech, surpasses, survivability, similar classes”
Excuse my ‘merican but What The Fuck does that even mean???
As a dps we have crappy cd’s and as a tank WE still have crappy CD’s.
PT’s are becoming Glass Cannons along with mercs
Cant believe I used to love this game.

Hmm. Well, as a Corruption Sorcerer since launch, I get goosebumps when I see them messing with the class, but I can admit that it is pretty rare that I’ve needed to use “Consumption” now called “Consuming Darkness”. So perhaps this change will make more of a need for that mechanic. Not that there is usually a good time to pause from healing/fighting to use that ability lol

Keywords “Powertech, surpasses, survivability, similar classes”

Excuse my ‘merican but What The Fuck does that even mean???

As a dps we have crappy cd’s and as a tank WE still have crappy CD’s.

PT’s are becoming Glass Cannons along with mercs

Cant believe I used to love this game.

Musco is a weiner. Need Devs to handle balance more properly and EA to stop putting their greedy hands off our pockets.

That’s the Problem, all the Original Devs that handled class balance and stuff got fired. But it’s ok these new devs are planning out our Hk55 rewards for next month

Yeah, wearing his head as a hat and weapons made of his body parts looks awkward at best. How long before we get his robotic schlong as a lightsaber hilt?
I thought the customization for C2-N2 looked decent on him, though, and is the only HK-reward that I’ve really made any use of. But I would have preferred the two protocol droids get customizations for all the basic metal colors: gold, silver, copper, black….

as far class balance the sorcs/con should have never been in the game to begin with the class is based on the emperor lol its always been op and even with nerfing will still be somewhat. As for EA they consider tor a miss theyre doing the same thing as they do with all games they gut the staff crew get skimpy with content and put their money into cash stores and not much else. Its quite sad the game could have really been something but as usual ea threw it in the blender and forgot about it

I wish they would give us skimpy content, i would sooo buy it! Like pasties! Hint hint Bioware, please take my money and dignity at the same time.

i still find it funny that they have that global cd shit hello the 90’s are calling they want thier mechanics back!

i would suggest a more modern approach like 955 of games where its not global cd i cant even think of another game that uses global cd its so old lol

Personally me prefer this game like slasher or action adventure. This mmo aspect anyway almost gone with this all more easy solo content updates. I think would be more fun to charge into battle like jedi knight or sith warrior and slay dozens of enemies at once and dont think about health or something. Just saying.

WoW, Wildstar and STO use Global cool downs… Oh wait… those are old games or games based off of old school mechanics.

Yeah most games you play now are more about resource management and less about cooldowns.

Another nerfs for Inq/Con…? Who could ever suspects that? Just FU BioFail.
Now just wondering when melee get dmg nerfs or stealthers get nefrs on their vanishes,stuns or roots abilities… Or juggs on theirs surviability…
Nah just FU Biofail.

Damn these nerfs are not good we hate all these crazy nerfs that mess the game up again………………
Stop the madness guys !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow, you know, for the first time since launch i was doing a decent job with my vanguard, now that might actually be ruined, thanks bioware.

Yes yet negatively effect PVE that’s the issue here PvP gets more balanced while PVE has to suffer for it. They have to keep both PvP and PVE in mind when making these decisions since balancing in swtor is done universally and effects both sides.

Yeah plus its two opposing viewpoints too, for PvP it’s all about burst, for PvE its all about Sustained with some burst depending on what you are doing.

They need to separate PvP and PvE somehow. Every time PvPers complain about a class Bioware changes it and it becomes useless in PvE. Right now they are shooting themselves in the foot no matter what they do. Bring a class in line with what a boss fight requires for PvE and it’s OP in PvP. Nerf a class so that it is closer to balanced in PvP and now that class sucks in PvE. This sea-saw effect is one of the biggest problems in SWTOR.

these changes suck for PT.. why does PT keep getting nerfed? and PT is has the Weakest survivability of any tank or DPS and they nerf our survivability more? GG u fuckin fail ass developers

pt hasn’t been one of the strongest dps since their major nerf in 4.2, the only Melee Weaker than PT currently is operative. hell Juggs can do more Dps in most situations and have better survivablity.

PtT is the best mDPS as it currently isn’t really a melee and it’s the only class that doesn’t need to cast anything! In operations and PvP it rocks the dps (or in PvP at least the single target DPS).

What? PT tanks with the current gear are the squishiest of the three, have the worst CDs, and were the only tank class to have their movement nerfed, rather than buffed, with 4.0. With the removal of ranged agro, about the only reason to take one is to make Revan a bit easier or because you really like the class.

Have you played a PT tank in any HM/NiM content recently? While the indeed do have the lowest amount of CDs this is because they don’t take spike damage comparable to the other tanks. For example, in Raptus driving thrust will hit sin tanks for up to 80k damage, usually killing them if they dont have a CD up. On the other hand, a PT will take significantly lower damage without a CD up.

Just what I have seen from tanking, my sin feels a lot better in HMs than my PT, and my jugg felt like I was barely getting hit. Haven’t done much NiM, just TFB and SnV on my PT, but have been getting my sin geared for that purpose.

sins are more acceptable in most NiM fights because of their cheese abilities… GL killing Brontes w/out a sin 🙂

As I said above: do you people actually PLAY these classes , or you just login to troll??? looooool

As a NiM sin tank, I don’t mind the 80k hit. I just wish it was a more predictable mechanic. I like to save shroud for force execution, but I could see using cloak/shroud on that one if the darn driving thrust was more predictable.

They have the fewer def cd’s, I give you that.

They are absolutely NOT the squishiest of the 3, unless of course you don’t know how to gear them…

And you complain about mobility??? Hold the Line had a SLIGHT reduction in time in 4.0… And it STLL kicks proverbial behind…

Wanna talk mobility? Talk to a Guardian tank, he might have a few reasons to complain…

Removal of ranged aggro??? This is where you COMPLETELY lost me… You should elaborate, because I cannot understand what you mean…

Guardians actually feel as mobile as Vanguard’s right now. You have enough utilities that increase your movements speed to acceptable levels and you got an extra cheese level defensive and mobility tool on a 45 seconds cooldown. Like SR wasn’t enough already…

Guardians aren’t nearly as mobile as powertechs. Pt tanks are in a pretty good place right now, and these nerfs will make hardly a difference.

jugg/guardians have more mobility than PT/Vanguard currently… leap + leap to friend + dash and by the time u use all those you can do them all over again. PT we have our leap + hydraulics every 45s

Oh yeah right… Until you get pushed/knocked/slowed or whatever by some mechanic and puffff… There’s goes your leap right out the window… All the time the PT tank had Hold the Line/Hydraulics and for him it was business as usual! lol

Honestly u dont know what you are talking about i will have to say, and thats 100% ok and now i will tell you what the others are talking about.

Just cause u got full 224 does not mean you have the best gear on your PT Tank, far from it actually, if you study the math behind the game abit you will see that any points you put in defense chance over 2000 is kind of a waste since you get less and less from it, so the bedst thing to do, is to get FULL 224 and then change alld your mods into B mods, granted you loose a bit of mastery, but you change A LOT of defense chance in to endurance which helps you a lot more. I recently found this out and changed from 2900 defense chance to 2400 and then also went from 72k health to 78k, so yes i take a tiny bit more damage but i have around 10% more health to mitigate that 🙂

that 10% health aint gonna matter when you’re getting smacked for over 100k Pt tanks are currently the worst in rotations hence why u dont really see them for many NiM groups anymore, they are good for the occasional boss, but the survivability and cheese and overall dps boost of the other classes makes the PT a useless tank

In my raid group with always run with at least 1 powertech tank and we would run with 2 if my co tank had his PT tank geared and knew how to play it, we cleared ToS and Rav with 2 PT tanks and also EC NiM was cleared with 2 PT tanks and we are clearing TfB, and SnV NiM without any problems on tank side anyways so i at least am not feeling what you are describing

never said it couldn’t be done, my main group had a PT he tanked with through majority of content.. Until he realized his jugg was doing about 400 more dps and had way more survivablity, as well as his Sin was better in most cases where the Cheese of a mechanic is needed. that being said we cleared all NiM content with his PT tank except for brontes

If you’re getting hit for 100k it’s a sign that you’re standing in stupid, not doing a proper rotation, and/or you didn’t gear properly.

Exactly lol! Was about to write something along those lines but you beat me to it…

yet they dont have an instant cheese ability like the other tanks.. IE shroud/saber Reflect that makes most mechanics just non existent, and they still choose to nerf the PT..

They don’t have an instant cheese because they have the highest passive mitigation. Although, i’d argue that oil slick, when used properly, it just as great as shroud/reflect, given that the duration it is down can provide just as much of a benefit as the shorter duration of shroud and reflect.

I have to ask: do you people actually play these classes, or you just login to use your expletives and say that nerfs suck???

You don’t have to play it, 90% only play it because it is OP, and complaining then is pretty cheap, and PT have good survivibility with their kiting abilities with HO, and not to forget, what dmg could hit you, just burst.

this is bs aleady nerfed to death from lvl sync if they wld just get rid of the pvp bolster there is no need for nerfs on classes

If people would only learn to stop buying cartel crap so Eric Musco and his band of trolls source of income drops then maybe they will listen to the players, fix bugs, give us more GSF content, more ops, slinger/sniper tanks, mara/sent heals or just do us all a favor and shut the servers off so we don’t have to listen to more of Musco’s BS.

Wouldn’t hold your breath on that one. People are all about instant gratification now, they want their shinny now, don’t care that it is making the devs lazier.

these changes sucks wtf does that 2 radio,s mather i bet some sucking players complained

Yay, time to come back to earth my pve sorc heal buddies – resource management remedial class for you 😉 As someone who’s been doing hm and nim on the other heal classes it’ll be interesting to see how my colleagues fare. Maybe some of the obnoxious smugness will deflate.

Nope, I’ll just be going back to my Scoundrel if the bump in heals isn’t worth the leap in force cost. Honestly energy management won’t be the issue, it is the cost of ability to heals given ratio that could be an issue.

When you start dying on bosses due to your lack of heals due to being carried, your obnoxious smugness will deflate.

I’m the only who likes how they are nerf’ing these damn healers in PVP? Like seriously 12 year boys ranting on the general chat “hah takes 5 of ur dps to take me down….L33t Healz” Not this time….heehe

However, these nerfs to Sage/Sorc’s will make them stupid in PvE as raid healers. Once again Fuck PvE for the sake of PvP.
Thanks BW, you suck.

I wouldn’t say they are over performing in PvE, I main a Sage healer and don’t feel like an all powerful healeing god.

Since launch force healers have been the more challenging class because they we’re HOT’s healers with touchy resource management. We got our resource management issues worked on between 2.0 and 3.0 and straightened out before 4.0 hit. At the end of 3.0 however they nurfed Salvation to the point of being worthless, made our survivability crap, but made our resource regen stop forcing us to trade HP for force power. We also got helped out in 4.0 with better survivability, improved resource management and salvation being effective again. Now they are, basically rolling back the resource management improvements and putting a focus on force healers being bursty instead of HOT’s focused.

You can’t have a bursty healer that is forced to chanel and cast all their abilities, they become AOE bait, boss bait, stun bait and just plain old cannon fodder.
In PvP, maybe they are over performing, but a skilled player can interrupt our heals, force us to move and take us out fairly easily. But I’ll take your word for it that they are OP in PvP since I’m only a casual PvPer and haven’t been in a WZ since Mid April.

You have the best single target burst of all healers, while also having the best sustained hps on relatively low amount of targets (operatives will win on more with kolto waves and kolto probes). In addition to this, you have by far the most mobility of any healing class, with all your important heals being either instant or usable on the move. And also having no force management issues whatsoever.
Now I do agree that revivication is not a great heal and I don’t see the point in increasing its cost. But I do see that sorcs need some sort of nerf, in both pvp and pve.

I generally agree, except on ONE point: Merc/Mando healers have the best single target burst healing, hands down, bar none.

Mandos are great… In fact, my LEAST favourite healer is Sage/Sorc… I REALLY miss the playing of my Operative, that STILL is my favourite, in spite of the “Mother of all Nerfs” in 3.0… In fact, people playing Sages/Sorcs should have experienced what a NERF really is lol…

It’s not to do with the numbers, it’s about gameplay with me… In general, I agree with these nerfs, because they’re mild nerfs, they’re not dropping the class from a 40-store building and then running over it with a bus… And I KNOW what that is like lol…

1V1 a sage healer is easy to kill but that’s never the case in pvp seeing as most imperial teams have at least 2-3 running around healing the group with ease making voidstar the worst pvp map ever to plat a bomb (especially rep side as they suck lol)

Nah, we learned to live with the nerf to force storm, and we will adapt to having using more of our force pool. Your pathetic friends are walking into trap, and soon you will call me …”master” Ahahahahahha – hack- cough- ahh.. XD

I don’t see how these PT changes will have any noticeable effect on PT tanking or DPS at all. What strange combat strategies are people using that 30-meter Rail Shot is a vital part of their rotation?

I doubt it’ll have a really big effect. But as a pt tank in pve it’s sometimes nice to have 30m ranged abilities. But just like unload removal, pt will live through it without too much problems.
People just like to whine.

@DerpDude: extactly the point … you are so right … beeing able to tank toth by short range and support DDs on long range on zorn or tank jac with taunts alone while firing on sorno or just kiteing the big armored guy in SnV with a few shots and taunts while firing on horny, swiney or biggun … THIS is the point for a range tank THIS is the reason for a range tank. Everything that makes this tank class special, even among other MMOs, is just taken away.
@all others:
Van/PT tanks are already a minority in the game. At least on this server, T3-M4. Many raid grps prefer the jedi/sith tanks ’cause the lot of cds and even fully avoidable damage. And now van/pt are getting nerved making them even more rare. WTF?

30m Rail Shot wasn’t a vital part of the rotation, but when boss mechanics forced you to keep a 15m+ distance…then it helped alot for gaining extra aggro.

i used RS to keep my retractable blade DoT on targets further then 10m, this works well for tight DPS checks like NiM EC tanks, NiM terror Tentacles, and ETC… basically any time dps need to split up id be using it for that purpose… but NOT anymore.. thanks to biofail shitty ass developers.. i guess its okay.. im 1 more nerf away from quitting the game for good. The game is just not fun for me anymore. i did all the NiM @ lvl done all the NiM again in 4.0 there is nothing more fun in this game for me.. i’m just going through the motions with my friends/raid team

for the sorceror heal nerf i would have preffered just a small nerf to their healing output. Smaller big heals and maybe slightly better small heals or aoe heal resulting in an overall 5% or max10% reduced healing potential.

And the operatives/scoundrels, the mara/sent and juggs/guardians gonna play alone since this moment… incompetents

so sages/sorcs get a buff in heal spec and madness gets nerfed and assasins also since they both share deathfield ability

and pt get nerfed cuz why? they werent overperforming

Because they were overperforming in PvP. Carbonize nerf would’ve been better. Madness was overperforming too.

This is definitely a Sorc healer nerf in all regards except for fights under two minutes

Check the pvp leaderboards please. Sorcs are overperforming, a lot. And powertechs are pretty much right behind them.

You probably laugh about what you wrote or you just do not realise what is going on around you/what PvP is about. Maras and Juggs get outkited by a sorc that is worse than them and operatives are not overperforming, 2 rolls and then they are squishier than damn sorcs.

After this )”Maras and Juggs get outkited by a sorc “), no1 understand why maras and juggs go under sorcs always in pvp and avoid operatives, is nonsense… OHOHOH

That comes to my mind every time I read the new patch notes, they suck at buffing low classes, I can’t remind of a time they were doing this. Even the bug, that dot Vanguards had a slightly higher dps due to a higher trigger chance of Plasma cell, I thought like, okay, then buff the dot PTs to that level too, but no, the most fucked up class in PvP gets owned even more.

~4% more healing output for 25~30% added cost for Sorc/Sage healers should still keep them on top anyway. PT/Vguards needed range reduction cause its 30 attacks is super OP Vs 4m Strict melee classes. PT/Vguards have the easiest job to do across all 5melee classes. Everyone can play good a PT/Vguard pretty good but how many can play in similar awesomeness maras/sents ?

The time to give Agents a raid buff and give Snipers a kind of defense on par with Sorc bubble or Merc rocket out is long overdue.

Snipers get a complete reset of most of their CDs when they use imperial preparations. Im not sure why you think they need more utility when they already have more survival than mercs.

People complaining about Sniper survival don’t know how to play the class, it’s that simple I’m afraid. Or do they want them to be unbeatable? And before the venom starts spiting out, my main is an Engineering Sniper…

We’re still WAY behind the other melee’s in raids.

Can’t speak for pvp. Haven’t played since December.

Though I do realize you’re replying to a lolsniper who didn’t enjoy being pick/ban for raids for the two weeks that raiding was “relevant” in 4.0.

There was no reason to nerf sorcerers. I main that class, i’ve played it for 4 years and the only thing i do better then i play sorc is killing sorcs on any other class (since i have all 8). It’s the easiest thing ever. You say force barrier, h2f, well, you just have to learn how to couner it. Bursting a sorc from full to 0 hp 2 times is still easier then bursting any other class. Sorcs are far from being overpowered. Because they’re ridiculously squishy. and their self-healing was the only thing why i still played it after 4.0. Now i won’t, because you losers cry instead of learning to play.

Agreed, light “armor” of sorcs is fail…almost any class can lolstomp sorcs and they haven’t burst in lightning, uber single target dps in madness…only advantage are those off heals, not talking about healer spec which I don’t play with.
Just watch this or just about any other vid on yt about swtor pvp and see that sorcs/sages are having weak survivability. Their dps can be great only via dot spread (radius will be nerfed), just nerf healers and leave madness as it is now.

I would like to draw your attention to this:

If you don’t feel like reading through it, I would like to quote a short comment made by the AUTHOR of the Guide, who I would like to think is a neutral party to this discussion:

“Well a class that can put out quite easily 3k DPS+ 1.5k HPS at the same time is pretty overpowered. It is pretty ridiculous having a 50% heals of your total damage, and sometimes it can go up to 75%.

That is overpowered as hell.”

Madness Sorcerers ARE OP. There’s just no way you people can say they’re not. In fact, I think Sorcerer healers are not nearly as OP as Madness, if there was to be a single nerf, it had to be to Madness. I PLAY Madness, I know what I’m talking about.

You can put up any kind of video from Youtube where someone is kicking ass. I can search for any number of videos where I see Sorcs kicking ass too. It proves NOTHING.

It depends on a player, really. In your example the guy was probably offhealing a lot or bubbling people all over the warzone. There’s no way he did 1.5k hps with 25% of dots that do about 0.6-1.1 k damage per tick. I do 4k dps, but hardly 0,5k hps and i’m healing myself a lot, because i’m constantly focused. I simply don’t believe the author of the mentioned guide.
But then again, dps numbers is nothing, yeah i can and usually do more dps then anyone in my group, but my dps on a single target is nothing. How are madness sorcerers kick arses if it takes about 1.5 minutes or more to kill a PT or a guardian even if they won’t fight back but it takes about 10 seconds or less for them to burst me? How are they kick arses if they got less armor rating then any other ranged dps, yet unlike arsenal mercs or MS snipers with their possible 25-30k hits they got ridiculous dots that tick forever and do dirt-low damage unless spread and any PT or a guardian or whoever won’t even notice those while stomping you in the ground? Right now sorcerers gameplay is much about meaningless dps farm, “spread and get the hell out of here before these guys noticed you”, because if they do there’s nothing you can really put up against them except kiting, doting and popping force barrier about 3-4 seconds after a PT closed on you.
Pre-3.0 (correct me if i’m wrong, it was a while ago) we didn’t have a dot spread on death field, but we had decent self-heals, they kinda worked even better then at this moment. No one was complaining. Then they gave us that shitty dot-spread i never asked for, at the expense of single-target burst which was boosted for other classes but remained (and remain to that very moment) at the same level for sorcs. People were and are complaining a lot about sorcs high dps numbers without ever realising that sorcs dots are nothing to be afraid off and can be easily outhealed and completely disregarded if you got a single healer. Even if you don’t, you can pretty much ignore them, since it will take them a few minutes to kill you even if you will stay and do nothing like a dummy. Again, i didn’t ever heard anyone complaining about sorcs self-heals. If 90-150 hp per tick self-heals once in 1-2 seconds really ever saved anyone… well, his attackers should probably throw themselves outta the window. It’s really not something that gonna help you if a pt/guardian/marauder/putanyclassesnamehere will be sitting on you, if you really play madness yourself you know that i’m right and there’s no point in cutting it to 10%.
With that said, i’m totally cool with the dotspread nerf. They can’t take it away as a whole for all i care and reduce dots duration to 6s instead, like they did for annihilation/watchmans dots.

Just try to do that dps on sorcs with pt/vg, guardians/jugs around that will all focus on poor sorc and most likely global him.
Sorc running for his life whole match can’t do super dooper dps and if he’d try to dps harder then he’d die faster…resulting in little dps. Ideal dps for this class is when enemy team is stupid enough to not kill sorcs fast, when sorcs are left alone to spam dmg then they are like you said OP.

Kinda have to agree..I loved madness spec cause i was almost unkillable..So, it had to be nerfed..

Maybe you are fighting weak sorcerers. I can easily hold 2 good dps with my sorc heals. If I have plenty of places to LOS them, maybe 3. Even if I coudnt, I still have my phase walk , and back to 100% health. Dying again? Bubble, and back to 100% one more time. No other discipline have 3 lifes lol.

The guyz who said sorc are not OP, just look at pvp rank, just the TOP 100 will tell you what u don’t want to heard.

As a Vanguard species for dos instead of tanking I find these changes to be awful. You’ve limited my ability to dos from afar, making me a bigger target than I should be.

Why oh why are they still messing with the fotm classes, I’m sick of this, have they not learnt anything? Read forums and see what the community wants.

Should they just leave any class imbalances as they are now? I mean having issues with specific changes is one thing, but to have problems with changes in general is a whole other.

They need to stop messing with fotm classes, and recognise that there are severely under achieving classes. For example, I play a mando medic, and the class in pvp is a joke, they need to sort out the entire system and their relationships to other classes.

Agreed, its like they play around with sage/shadow/vanguard these days, getting rather annoying, no love for DOT spread for Ruffian/Lethality :(.

I couldn’t agree more, it makes me so mad. Ruffian, combat medic, plus more need the fotm treatment. I don’t know what I will do in 5.0 if they are still undervalued and ignored. If they buff the forgotten classes surely it will make the game more interesting, maybe ruffian and lethality have been ignored for the same reason that combat medic has, allocation of math and dps numbers.

I see your point and do agree that a lot of classes need some love. But I do still think the overperforming classes should be looked at and balanced back in as well.

>People are complaining about it affecting or not affecting raiding when raiding has been dead since roughly 14 months ago.

Still no decent DOT spread for Ruffians, show some love Bioware fs! -_- cant see me coming back anytime soon.

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