SWTOR Galactic Command Dark Vs Light Overview

Bioware has published a new blog post on the Dark vs Light system of the Galactic Command feature coming with 5.0.

Galactic Command – Dark vs Light

An exciting new feature of Knights of the Eternal Throne is the Galactic Command system which gives you the ability to impact the balance of the Force™ in the ongoing dark vs. light war. Starting from your first moments in the game, you’ll be able to choose whether to fight for the dark or light side of the Force™. If you change your allegiance, it’s no problem – changing sides can be done at any time. Plus, all of your actions, including killing enemies, completing Missions, and making choices throughout your story will determine your character’s alignment. Everything you do as part of your gameplay ultimately strengthens your impact on the dark vs. light side war by igniting explosive and unexpected dark and light side battles on your server. Let’s talk about how it all works!

Measuring Dark vs Light
Once you have selected your side, you will begin to earn dark or light side points. At this point, you will be able to see your character’s alignment as it changes reflected in your character window. You can view your alignment by pressing C (by default) and viewing the dark/light meter on the left side of the character window as shown here:

As you earn points they get added to your server’s total dark or light side points, shifting the balance of the ongoing battle to one side or the other. To tell which way the battle is leaning, check the Galactic Command window (pressing CTRL_G) and view the dark vs. light meter at the bottom, as shown here:

As one side moves closer to winning, you will see the changes reflected in the movement of the meter as one side’s color dominates the slider bar. As you can see, there are 5 “breakpoints” on each side, each representing a “level.” For example, if the light side is currently in the lead and their indicator looks like the following screenshot, then they would currently be at Light 3.

Your character’s alignment directly impacts the progress of the dark vs. light battle on your server. Let’s talk about how what you do impacts which side wins the battle!

The Dark vs. Light Battle
As one side secures victory, the galaxy will begin to see the effects. For example, let’s say the dark side wins on your server and you are in Dark 5. Suddenly, you may begin to see dark side enemies emerging and attacking, such as a Sith Lord ready to strike against the Jedi Temple on Coruscant . Light side players can try to fend off the attack by rallying together to try to take down this new dark side threat which has emerged. Doing so may even earn them bonus command points or light side tokens to that can be used to purchase items from an exclusive light side vendor.

If your character’s alignment matches the alignment of the side winning on your server, you will earn a dark or light side token in addition to your normal Command Crate each time you gain a Command Rank. As an example, if your server is at Light 3 and you have a Light side character, you will earn a light side token each time you gain a Command Rank. If your character is dark side, you will only gain the normal Command Crate. So, as the dark vs. light side war is waged, your efforts will help your side to win the war on your server and you will get rewarded for your efforts!

Spoils of War
In order to win the battle, your server must reach “Dark 5” or “Light 5.” The side that reaches level 5 first is declared the winner of the battle! If your character’s alignment matches the winning side (your character is dark side and the dark side achieved “Dark 5”) you reap the following benefits:

  • Bonus Command Experience points earned
  • Dark side tokens whenever you earn a Command Rank
  • Access to a special cosmetic item reward vendor

If your character’s alignment matches the losing side, don’t worry you get something as well (e.g., your character is light side, and the light side lost the war). You will receive the following benefits:

  • A bonus to all light side points earned
  • You can take down dark side enemies spawning around the galaxy to earn light side tokens

As one side earns victory, the server enters a “victory state” for a period of time and then the battle resets. It is our goal that victories will happen multiple times every day, so be sure to check-in often! During this “victory state ,” the losing side receives a short-term advantage, as all of their alignment point gains will be increased during that time ! Whether you are playing alone or you band together with friends and Guild mates to fight the dark vs. light battle, Galactic Command adds a new level of dark vs. light competition to your gameplay as you continue to fight for your side… for rewards and glory!

By Dulfy

MMO guide writer and blogger. Currently playing and covering SWTOR, GW2, and TSW.

152 replies on “SWTOR Galactic Command Dark Vs Light Overview”

Probably not, it’ll most likely change normally by dark or light side decisions in conversations etc. The DvL points you earn are just for the server to see which alignment is doing better untill one side wins the battle.

My guess is there will be a large multi guild that controls this (think BBB on Harb for conquests). They will win one side and stay around until the bonus is up then swap to the other faction. Small servers might not see this. When people grow tired of this, The care will go away from even the DvL guild

Query: Since everyone of the winning alignment will get rewards during victory for their alignment, who cares about that?

People grind in MMO’s and this is going to be another example. People will grind their GC crates. To do this the most efficiently, they will abuse the system by working together as such a guild to constantly swap sides. First to get the victory bonus on one side and then once it goes away, swap to the other that will now have the advantage and make that win and get that take advantage of that bonus.

Maybe this won’t happen, but I can definitely see it and it will quickly make the importance of DvL mean very little other than a GC buff.

Funny how they complain about the existing currencies, which is pretty simple, yet they add two new currencies.

2 new currencies yes but at that point will be the only 2 aside from credits. They are removing all data crystals and PVP commendations

This sounds horrible. My main is, and has always been, neutral for role playing reasons. Now I have to break character just to get gear? That sucks.

It is just for this bonus stuff, not actual gear.
You want to remain neutral then its simple, play one week light the next dark.

Technically what you say will work of course. But RP-wise that’s not how things work.

Think of the Esseles fp. My neutral toons usually help the guys trapped in the airlock (LS) but then leave that ambassador behind (DS).

Now they will have to kill the guys in the airlock just because that week they’re going DS, and spare the ambassador the next week because that week they have to go LS.

So their decisions will not be based on how I want to RP them but on a system that is enforced to me. And I don’t like the sound of that. I hope I make sense by the way.

What do you mean by “the system is enforced me?”

The server’s dark vs light battle has absolutely nothing to do with you, on a personal level. You can continue to role play exactly as you want to and completely ignore the alignment war and not be penalized at all for it.

Actually been absolute neutral is impossible without you personally compensate with diplomacy missions, you always going to have some light or dark side points more, been neutral means that you don’t have enough of an edge to be light or dark 1.
My sniper is neutral but have 200 light side points more than dark side, thats means if light side win she will also win that battle.

Cap out at 10,000 Light.
Do solo mode Black Talon for 200 Dark side points each. 5K Light, 5K Dark. Char alignment neutral [0]
It’s a thing, and a sign that the Devs can’t do simple math.

I think you missed the point. You don’t need to willingly participate to get gear. As you gain command ranks, you get gear. Has nothing to do with your alignment. Sure, the winning side would get a CXP bonus, but so what?

You aren’t being punished for playing neutral. But it’s got to be really hard to stay neutral. You need to have exactly 0 light and dark side points. 1 or more in either direction tilts you towards that side.

Honestly, there is nothing for you to lose. Even if you don’t care about it, you still get bonuses based on what the rest of the server is doing.

You can switch between Light and Dark Side at any time, so simply alternate each day, or week, or whatever suits you. I know it’s not the same as being true neutral, but to be fair, most of the game (class missions, assorted stuff on planets, flashpoints) makes you choose Light or Dark Side options from time to time, so you remain neutral by going back and forth to some extent, anyway.

The game has a sizeable population of people who play to hang out with friends. I am lightside, I hang out with a bunch of Reaper wanna-be Edgelords who roll darkside(who I mock with love). I guess I can’t really do the victory stuff with them…I’ll just be what? Stopping their fun? Did I read that right? “Light side players can go out and stop Dark side players from fighting
the bosses and stop them gaining command experience and dark side side
tokens. ” Holy shit I did! My reward for winning is being an asshole to my friends?

I’ve already found myself wishing I hadn’t brought people with me for DvL tacticals I was running because they were effectively undoing any blue progress I was making towards an awesome Chiss companion instead of a stinklord-crappy-mc-ugly-gross-Xabrak(noracist). People that I genuinely enjoy playing with otherwise. Are pugs going to start doing alignment checks now? I don’t think they’ve thought this out. And when people decide they’ve had enough of the competition, and everyone sucks it up and all just start going with the winning alignment, anyone still dedicated essentially become a new underclass. eg “Sorry, all lightsiders here, I still need my chest, gonna grind some Command later”

Tinfoil hat: We chased off all the hardcore raiders. We chased off the most hardcore pvpers long ago. Stage 3, kill the social aspect.

“Light side players can go out and stop Dark side players from fighting
the bosses and stop them gaining command experience and dark side
tokens. ” — What this means is a group of light-sided people can get together and kill a boss before a group of dark side players could. Effectively stealing the kill and preventing the dark side group from getting those points.

If you are a light-sider, you can still group together with dark-sider’s; you will get your points and they will get theirs, each with whatever bonus added for if their respective side is winning/losing. Just like it is in tacticals right now for DvsL.

Which by the way in your example of those, no ones progress is really being undone. I see what you mean about it being cancelled out, but those people would have just gotten someone else and still made the same dark side decision. If anything you could see it as mitigating the damage of their decisions, but even still it really isn’t, it’s just you making your decision and them making theirs.

Plus they said the losing side in the new DvsL will continue to gain more and more of an advantage so that both sides will win no matter what.

I’m only doing the tacticals I am doing to complete DvL reqs for 4th tier reward. I can solo them, but I have been duoing them with Pyre, and we’ve been sure to hit light every time because honestly who needs a shitty Zabrak companion? One is coming soon enough next expansion. But if we bring someone with us, its to be nice, it isnt to fill out a group. So yup, they are undoing our efforts as they are normally joining to be social, I should be happy my friend is there, not concerned they are reducing my contributions.

“gain more and more of an advantage” -Citation needed where it becomes cumulative, and if the win ratio is 4:1 or 5:1 before some unconfirmed theoretical cumulative bonus inevitably flips the scales back…then my point still stands.

“What this means is a group of light-sided people can get together and
kill a boss before a group of dark side players could. Effectively
stealing the kill” And this makes me doing that to my friends somehow less of an asshole? There was a time this sort of thing was perceived as friendly competition. In EQ, racing to a boss through trash along different routes against another guild added a layer of tension, and normally ended in terse but friendly enough congratulations and better luck next times. But with WoW came this new generation of “grief for lols” mentally asswads, and perception has shifted. It’s just arguments waiting to happen now.

“and we’ve been sure to hit light every time because honestly who needs a shitty Zabrak companion? One is coming soon enough next expansion.”

Who else besides Akaavi or Hexid?

Akaavi. Hexid is sort of redundant. I was really excited when they showed the lineup of co-pilots for ship pvp, and then sad when it didn’t pan out into a companion later on. I’d rather have something new, even if it is just a companion skin. I was gonna dress mine up as a Pyre clone.

Good Chiss news for you: Datamined info shows that Ranos seems to be complete (mission, profile, profile picture). Hexid is almost as complete.

I’m looking forward to that Chiss 🙂

This is why I went LS in choices. Also when I get my Akaavi back she better not be sporting a sniper rifle as well.

Same. I play LS normally, but I don’t normally care about it. Once I am maxed, I normally let Pyre win anything that will flush people into space or explode them. I do bad things vicariously through her.

“gain more and more of an advantage” -Citation needed where it becomes
cumulative, and if the win ratio is 4:1 or 5:1 before some unconfirmed
theoretical cumulative bonus inevitably flips the scales back…then my
point still stands. — They said on the stream that even if your were the only light side player on the server you would eventually beat everyone else. So it’s cumulative. As for the rate, we don’t know and they’re not going to tell us, so that’s a discussion to be left for when it comes out.

“What this means is a group of light-sided people can get together and
kill a boss before a group of dark side players could. Effectively
stealing the kill” And this makes me doing that to my friends somehow less of an asshole? — That’s why the very next sentence I said you don’t have to grief your friends, you can just group up with them like you would regardless of any DvsL.

“If you are a light-sider, you can still group together with
dark-sider’s; you will get your points and they will get theirs, each
with whatever bonus added for if their respective side is

Implying the game didn’t already have wars. Trying too hard. And people accuse me of being too far up bioware’s ass….

So what about people who think that dark or light are both forced, and alternate between the two to remain neutral? Fucked as usual?

To be honest, that’s my biggest concern as well.

Almost all my non-Force users are neutral. I mean, what does a freighter captain (aka Smuggler) know about the Force or light side or dark side?? And I have several Grey Jedi and Revanite Sith toons who prefer being neutral as well. Needless to say, I prefer RP’ing my toons as neutral rather than pretending they’re some kind of an angel (LS 5) or demon (DS 5).

So what now? Am I being punished for choosing to stay in the middle?

you’re not punished
It’s close to impossible to be truly neutral (meaning exact 0 alignment points), looking at the info so far, you’ll still get rewarded just like a full light/dark toon
And nobody is loosing a thing, both winners and losers gain rewards

neutral doesn’t mean exact 0 Alignment it means you haven’t reached either dark 1 or light 1. You can have 10 k points in dark and 9 K points in light and the alignment meter will still put you in as neutral. cause you dont fully embrace either sides

I know
if I understood it correctly, BW doesn’t look at your alignment tier, only at your actual alignment (1 point in dark is same as tier 5 dark; for the victory/loss conditions anyway)
that’s what I meant with not being able to be truly neutral; you can stay grey, but not on 0

Ah. But regardless I do understand their pov. But they should also understand in war it’s always one side that wins so good or evil. Blue or red etc.

But they can however put neutral themed items on the vendor that pops up for light or dark. But meh not concerned tbh.

This was accessed in the stream. Most of the system doesn’t chesck how much light/dark you are. And let’s face it, nearly impossible to stay 0 in the game, a lot of dialogs, quests and other gives DS/LS points. The most you can do is balancingout, so you’re a little on one side. (most of my characters are under 1000 alignment points, even my sith. But they are not 0)
So when one side wins, you still can get the perks and stuff with the little alignment you have on that side, or easier for you to switch sides and join the winning side so use both of them to your advantages.

By neutral of course I don’t mean staying at exactly 0 alignment but rather staying somewhere -anywhere- between Light I and Dark I.

There are 2000 alignment points between Light I and Dark I. That’s where most of my toons like to stay. And if one goes, say, 400 points towards Light side, then I make a few dark choices so that they go back closer to 0. They never EVER reach neither Light I nor Dark I.

That’s what I mean by neutral.

From the forum:
Oh! Great question that we probably didn’t explain thoroughly enough. Coming with KOTET there will be a toggle on the UI that allows you to change whether you are fighting for the light or dark side. Once you click a side… any enemy you kill, any mission you complete, etc. will then earn you points for that side. If you are at Dark 5 and want to work your way towards light, simply click the light side toggle and play through the game.

Note that regardless of your toggle, choices made through conversation will still count as they would normally.

Hopefully that makes sense!


According with this you can keep being neutral, no worries about it.

Full version here

Geez, why can’t you people just say – cool, something new, I’ll give it a go. Battles reset often – ergo it’s not going to ruin your ersatz life on server.

Do you play the game? These choices have always existed. They are trying to package it as something new. Its not, please open your eyes

All you “wahhh I play neutral toons” well, you don’t have to participate. Just like you don’t need to run every toon through kotfe. Just fucking embrace change or go yell at kids on your lawn, assholes.

Bioware should hire you for public relations. You’re basically telling everyone who says that they’re not interested in the endgame content of the game (because that is what Galactic Command is), to stop playing the game. If fanboys like you can’t embrace players with different opinions, why should everyone else embrace change?

He’s not talking about galactic command, he’s talking the DvL stuff
For people not interested it has 0 impact (apart from rewarding them)

Heard that one before… You White Knights have to get some new repertoire… Oh wait, you’re Biodrones… Forget what I wrote, just rehash old material like it’s new…

I wonder if you can say, set your toon to fight for the light side, then do some of the Imp heroic quests that have so really dark darkside choices in them and still earn points towards the light side. If that doesn’t work, almost all quests on Taris for Imps is just so damn evil that even when you don’t get alignment points it just feels wrong for a LS character to do them.

Also, very minor thing but just annoying. When that alignment bar is on light 3, why isn’t light 1&2 also lit up at the same time?

This almost seems a little like the Pre-Legion event in WoW, where random areas on the map would get attacked by the Legion force every few hours, and you had to kill them off for some rewards.

yeah where in WOW it was a small event that lead up to an actual mmorpg expansion release but in SWTOR its part of the expansion.
Only Bioware/EA can create which is in essence an ADD-ON and a mini event and try sell it as major expansion content.

Just a point guys you don’t have to get personnal light or dark side point. Basically you’re changing your server’s alignement by selecting the side your fighting for! Once you’ve selected it it will impact th alignement of your server but not yours, unless you’re selecting dark or light choice within a cutscenes.
Just wanted to make that clear…

which means most likely as time goes by a server will select a “default alignment” and everyone will just choose that

Light or Dark side win from who earns the most points L/D points. Losers have to fight enemy faction npc’s in their home systems to earn shit. Winners get the same shit without killing NPC’s.
To participate you don’t need a sub.
Bioware said “Fuck the neutrals” they don’t get shit.
If one side has a winning streak it will become harder and harder for them to win.
You as an individual do not matter in this event. Only how many light or dark side points you can earn, your characters will not go dark just because dark wins.

If I understand correctly, we will be getting points towards our side for ANY activity that we do, regardless of the dialogue dark/light rewards. So Black Talon or Esseles will not have any real advantage over other activities. Then again, I might be wrong, it’s not like everything about this aspect of the game is 100% clear. I am waiting to see how it works in action to actually judge for myself.

Thus expansion may be the one that gets me to unsub. Things have been getting bad last couple years but as always I’ll give the expansion a fair chance to impress me and give it a proper and fair chance but so far I’m not liking what I’m reading.

I renewed my subscription for 2 months only to play the new part of the story, get Shae Vizla and I will most probably unsub on the 10th of December too. I have already extended my subscription more than I wanted, for personal reasons…

This is my plan as well grabbing a 60 day card on Monday and it can wow or not. At this point once it dries up with the command system needing sub unless they have spectacular news in January I think this is it for me.

I have purchased all the account unlocks over the years for my stints between subs. I also have quite a few passes stored up for op’s and wz’s that I will be unloading before they are worthless. Like it is sounding they will become.

Both guilds I belong to have a good portion of the players looking at FF or going back to WoW. Neither of which interests me so I hope this goes off better then it reads so far.

Honestly it sounds pretty good. Especially the victory condition time limited changes to the open world. Something that brakes up the static game world is what’s been sorely needed in TOR since launch. Only shame is they didn’t ship something like this at launch and framed it in the context of the republic/empire war.

Server reaches Dark 5. Can my LS Inquisitor team up with the LS Jedis from my Rep side guild sister to get those bosses? Or will the bosses just spawn in starting worlds?

As Rondowar said, they’re going to spawn randomly. I think devs even mentioned Alderaan and Tatooine when first talking about it.

SO have 1 light side toon at 70 and one dark side toon at 70 and just swap to which ever side is winning at that time then?

So what stops a server from just agreeing on one side or the other? If nothing changes to my characters stats for light or dark and all i want is the easiest path to buy new stuff, seems easiest to go with the winning side. Whats the benefit of competing? Is the rewards going to be that unique for the light and dark vendor? If so a simple back and forth could be arranged. Like a custom chat channel saying hey we are doing light this time everyone picks light side takes a few minutes light side gets to 5 super fast and everyone goes and buys their pretty new stuff. I mean they got rid of pub versus imp we might as well work together to game the system. Heck we could even game the kills of the new bosses that spawn.

It could happen if say, the largest guilds on a server agree to it. With enough hardcore players constantly grinding in one direction, they could easily overrule the general populace (as they would likely split down the middle).

not only copuld it happen, I’m outright assuming it WILL happen. this sounds horriable. why do the devs keep thinking everyone is intreasted in hating progression behind “PVPVE”

For all the people here complaining that their “neutral character is useless.”

Stop, grow a brain, then think. Neutral characters have the ADVANTAGE in this system.

First of all, being “neutral” is really hard. You have to have a balance of exactly 0 alignment in either direction. If you lean 1 or more points in one direction, that’s the alignment you are considered to be. For example, if you have 501 Light vs 500 Dark, you are considered light, not neutral.

You can use this to your advantage. Simply skirt the neutral zone as best you can. Then, when one side is about to win, you gain a minor amount of points in favor of that side. Boom, now you have victory bonuses.

They also said that they are adding more ways to earn alignment points. So this means you don’t have to make a dark/light choice that goes against your roleplay. You can simply kill a dark/light mob or complete a dark/light mission. Hell, just do a grade 1 diplomacy mission.

If anyone is being shafted here, it’s the players who are Light V and Dark V.

Uh…That’s wrong. You need to have 1K more DS than LS to have an alignment, for example – you can even see that in the image above.

If you’re at 1k LS, you need 2K DS to switch sides.

And we have alts-noone is getting shafted.

You’re talking about personal alignment. You’re personal alignment says neutral, but if you have a greater amount of points towards one side, even if you haven’t broken Light I or Dark I, you’re considered on that side, in terms of the galactic alignment’s victory condition.

Is that not exactly what they just said in the stream?

No they didn’t. Click the video link in my last reply. It’s time-keyed to the part where they talk about neutral alignment.

For all the people here who believes that neutral characters must have 0 alignment at all times: No, they can be up to + or – 999 and still remain neutral. Which is what most of us do with our neutral characters.

I wrote this down, sorry for double posting but I think you must read it.

From the forums:

Quote: Originally Posted by DarthEnrique

Now the question I have that I tried to get an answer to was what happens if your characters are already at light side alignment tier 5 or dark side alignment tier 5? When you are at the max you can’t get anymore light or dark sided points though you can still make dark or light sided choices. What happens with this? Do the points you make for making choices still count even though your toon is already at tier five of either or what’s the case?
Oh! Great question that we probably didn’t explain thoroughly enough. Coming with KOTET there will be a toggle on the UI that allows you to change whether you are fighting for the light or dark side. Once you click a side… any enemy you kill, any mission you complete, etc. will then earn you points for that side. If you are at Dark 5 and want to work your way towards light, simply click the light side toggle and play through the game.

Note that regardless of your toggle, choices made through conversation will still count as they would normally.

Hopefully that makes sense!

Eric Musco | Community Manager

…so, basically in order to benefit, you must:
1.) Have a character
2.) Have a character select a side
3.) Blow up and kill shit.
After which, said character benefits according to the side selected, regardless of actual rank?

I do know that you can still gain LS and DS points after hitting max, it’s just that the points are wasted toward your rank. I think that now those extra points just go to the Side you picked.

As for ‘neutral’ characters…I don’t think it matters as all. Setting aside that Star Wars is NOT the place for neutral, middle of the road characters at all, all that matter is what “Side” you toggle. After that, you just kill stuff. That’s it. You can still have your ‘neutral’ character, no matter what choices you make, it all goes to the Light or Dark, depending on what you toggle as that character’s Side. If you are hoping you can make your server ‘neutral’, ninja please….NEVER going to happen and should not happen.

“Setting aside that Star Wars is NOT the place for neutral, middle of the road characters at all”

Only if you stick to the movies. Kyle Katarn and Revan are both pretty neutral, and those are fan favourites (because, let’s face it, neutral = believable).

Neutral? KATARN?!? REVAN?!!???!?

The first got into a total of FOUR major conflicts against both the Empire and the Dark Side, and ended up a Jedi Master and trainer at the Academy. Katarn TRIED to be neutral, but even during his more mercenary days, he was still very much on the good guy side, because he only took jobs AGAINST the Empire. He was never really neutral.

Revan used to be a Jedi Knight (good guy), was warped by the Emperor into a Sith Darth (bad guy), got his memories erased and turned back into a Jedi (good guy), went after the Emperor and got captured again, and when he got out decided to wipe out everybody (bad guy). Revan was NEVER a neutral character. He is a study of extremes in the Force all the time.

Neutral characters in Star Wars are background characters. This is a space opera. You want believable? Go watch 2001 A Space Odyssey or Firefly. Neutral characters don’t get involved, they don’t affect things. In SW, the Force itself sets things in motion, even if you’re not a user. Think about how badly Han didn’t want to get involved, and he ends up a General in the Rebellion. Lando was a con artist, and he ends up leading the assault on Death Star II. Leia and Padme were politicians, and both ended up on battlefields leading troops.

You wanna be neutral? Become a bartender on Tatoonie and keep your head down. Otherwise the Force is gonna find you and toss you into a situation where you MUST make a choice. Good and Evil, Dark and Light. Step up and become the Hero or the Villain.

In D&D games for example, I always love druids who are always True Neutral. They fight giant spiders to death for example but then switch sides and fight FOR the giant spiders if they’re in danger of being totally exterminated. That’s pretty neutral.

In SWTOR, Voss and Zakuul seem pretty neutral to me. Or maybe instead of neutral I should use the word balanced or balance. And especially the Voss remind me a lot of D&D druids.

And I always think of my Grey Jedi and Revanite Sith toons in the game as if they’re those D&D Druids but in a galaxy far, far away. They seek balance.

Zakuul is pretty much evil. They pillage worlds constantly, use massive battle station to ensure complete compliance, the citizens have zero freedoms or ability to speak against the government (doing so means exile to the swamps to die), and they control every aspect of Zakuulan life through droids, stamping down on free will.

Voss is about as neutral as you can get in Star Wars, and even there good and evil exists. The Voss as a species is more self-motivated then others and isolated, but they are also often kind and willing to help individuals. Their neutrality is more of a political one than a moral one.

Grey Jedi don’t exist. Never have. The only reference is the occasional Jedi that no longer serves the Counsel…which doesn’t mean they are neutral in any way, shape or form.

D&D neutrality is supposed to be about balance and the moment, which isn’t a trait of Star Wars. SW is very much the story of Good vs Evil. That is the core of the story. Not having it is like turning Batman into an Archie comic.

I was referring more to morality/Force alignment than faction. You could be a pretty nasty chap fighting for the ‘good guys’, after all. Revan and Katarn used powers from both sides of the Force, and they both make note of the fact in-universe. That’s why they’re popular characters- because you can actually believe in them as people.

Good Vs Evil is, and always will be, a fancy way of saying ‘crappy writing’. There is no such thing as good and evil. It simply cannot exist, because no two people will ever agree on what ‘good’ and ‘evil’ actually mean.

That ignores the unique story element of Star Wars, the very difference between it and every other franchise: Star Wars literally has a living, sentient energy force that controls EVERYTHING, no exceptions, and places them on the path of Good or Evil.

And yes the choices matter. The choices and their consequences do make for good story telling. And in the end, they end of on the Side their choices put them: Good or Evil, Light or Dark. How they got their is as interesting as the result. But none of them were ever neutral. Yes the ‘nasty chap’ fighting the bad guys can be Evil or Dark too, and that leads to side stories about going too far, causalities of war, etc.

Good vs Evil is not an excuse for crappy writing. It is simply a framework, just like “Everyone is Grey”, which tends toward being even lazier because it refuses to accept a result. If done well, it can leads to amazing stories.

“and places them on the path of Good or Evil”


“Yes the ‘nasty chap’ fighting the bad guys can be Evil or Dark too, and that leads to side stories about going too far, causalities of war, etc”

Yeah, that’s what grey is. Good vs Evil literally cannot exist unless all the characters in-universe agree on exactly what is ‘good’ and what is ‘evil’, which they don’t. The movies kept things pretty black and white, because that’s the story Lucas wanted to tell, but to say Star Wars has no place for neutrality is outright wrong- because it’s already in there, has been for decades. The movies? Sure, they’re aimed at a younger audience, so black/white is fine for them, but even the movies had shades of grey to bulk it out.

Regardless Star Wars is more than just the movies, and good storytelling demands shades of grey. Without it you’re left with bland, 2-D characters and a predictable plot.

Source is the movies, books, cartoons, etc. Simple observation provides it.

You are confusing moral and emotional conflict with being “grey” or neutral. The ‘nasty chap’ is Evil. Period. End of story. In some stories there might be some discussion about allowing him to continue, but in Star Wars he would either have to change or be tossed out of the service or arrested. He would not be allowed to continue fighting for the Good Guys and still be an awful person. It’s that kind of story. Eventually Evil would have to come into conflict with Good, regardless of sides.

Yes Star Wars is more than just the movies, and good stories do require some form of conflict. But that conflict does not mean ‘grey’ characters, just grey areas within them that will have to be dealt with. In fact, dealing with those conflicts and coming out on one side or the other is one of the cores of SW. Being ‘True Neutral’, mostly or complete grey IS lazy and boring, because you refuse to resolve your conflict. Worse, such people NEVER change anything. Star Wars has so little grey in it for a reason. It is a space opera, not an Oliver Stone film.

And yeah, people in Star Wars are pretty clear what evil and good is. Because they have this rather powerful Force thing running around binding the universe together. They are also very clear that both Sides constantly pull at you, tempting you in different ways. In fact, being able to use the Force makes you more susceptible to their influence. It is a simple story that was aimed more for younger people, but has a deep core that appeals to older fans. This very simple story has maintained and grown its fanbase for over 40 years, despite terrible Prequels and cartoons, without the need of morally ‘grey’ characters and endless moral meandering.

Want another example of how a simple Good vs Evil conflict can be well written without the need of grey characters? Go watch Steven Universe.

Ok I think I see where we are disagreeing on now.

You see ‘grey’ as moral choices and conflicts. I see it as Good vs Evil. To me, a ‘grey’ choice is something that does both with no real benefit to either. Say, killing a good man to save several other people. And yeah, that’s pretty much Star Wars, white and black with very little time between. But that also keeps the story dynamic, constantly moving forward. It is one of the few things that separates it from 95% of sci-fi stories. We have WAY too many ‘grey’ stories out there, especially these days.

But are the characters in the films bland? Two dimensional? I would argue no. Maybe a bit simple at times, but they are bright, dynamic people caught up in an epic story. Luke Skywalker may be one of the most complex sci-fi heroes of all time. He has several conflicts, mistakes, a dark history, loss, confusion, expectations, danger…and yet he manages in the end to succeed. He breaks through his conflicts into a calmer place, he become the Noblebright hero AND IT IS AWESOME. Best of all, he redeems the nastiest villain in the entire series and become THE most powerful Jedi ever (barely a Knight and he hands Vader his ass).

Grey choices do not make characters good. Good writing makes characters good. Simply making things ‘darker’ does not mean they are better one bit. It may cater to your tastes a bit more, but it doesn’t improve things. This is a serial-based story. You MUST have resolution. You have to have a turning point. Otherwise…yeah you are two dimensional. You are the kid in the back of the room thinking he could do better if he had the chance, but never takes that chance. Thankfully, the Force doesn’t let you sit on your ass for long.

Luke Skywalker is one of the most two-dimensional characters going. The books fleshed him out more, gave him character, but in the movies he was literally just the classic chosen one, hero character. He was good, from start to finish, and so he’s an incredibly boring character. Han Solo on the other hand actually has a personality that a real person would have, which isn’t that of a goody goody who always does the good thing.

Good VS Evil can never be believable because it doesn’t exist and never can. That’s why Solo was such a popular character, because people can relate to Solo while Skywalker remains as some imaginary, uncompromising ideal.

I agree that grey choices don’t make characters good, and that good writing makes characters good. But good writing is grey, because grey is realistic and believable and that’s what pulls people in and keeps them interested.

Why do you think people get so annoyed that GL changed ANH to that Greedo shot first? Because Han shot first. Because Han’s not an uncompromising good guy, he’s a grey character- and grey characters can shoot first.

And right here we disagree a bunch. Luke is THE most complex character in the entire series. Mark did an amazing job with him, especially for an actor with only a single movie prior to Star Wars.

Let’s start: Luke begins as an eager but frustrated youth on a backwards planet, struggling with his adoptive parents because of his desire to see the galaxy but also knowing his aging uncle and aunt need him badly to survive. The scene of the twin suns is iconic for a damned good reason, as through expression you see the conflict, needs and eventual acceptance in his face.

And then the Force steps in, arranging a chance meeting with Ben. He learns more about his “frieghter pilot” father and that he might have a chance at being a mythic hero. However, his first thought is his folks. And then the murders. That scene, going from horror to anger to determination, is amazing. He decides to join Ben, but we already see a bit of the seeds that would tempt him into darkness.

The rest of the film bounces him from wonder at the larger universe, to terror, to wild excitement. He is the youngest of the group and the least experienced, so he takes a more backseat role. It is only when he flies the X-Wing do we see him shine again.

Empire has a bigger change. We see that he is learning the Force, but his frustrations and anger are starting to overwhelm him. He has grown into a command position and the weight of it is starting to tell. He is uncertain, lost and beginning to break. In the training with Yoda, you can see his anger, his impatience. The scene in the cave is him confronting what the results of his anger is leading him. And he fails. He runs to fight Vader, and pays the price for him impatience and lack of wisdom.

RotJ shows us a Luke who is finally learning his lessons but not quite there yet. He is calmer but still uncertain. He has learned to accept being uncertain and move on. But that anger is still there. He has not let it go yet. Only after nearly breaking again to the Dark Side does he realize the path he is on, and seeing Vader half-robotic ruin the results of that path.

And he rejects it. He is done, a full Jedi Knight, the first in over 20 years.

Yeah. Luke is a good guy. How the hell does that make him boring? It makes him AWESOME. It makes him a cool character because he does deal with the same crap everyone does, and he overcomes it over time, just like anyone can. He is a hero and it is a role he EARNED. He is also realistic because he isn’t perfect, never was.

But look at Han. Han STARTS as a ‘grey’ character, but quickly morphs into a “good guy” by the end of NEw Hope…and then never changes again. His arc is over by then and is pretty much a standard good guy up to the end of RotJ. In a way, Han is the most boring character in the series because his arc ends so fast.

HOnestly I am surprised you didn’t point out Leia or Lando. If anyone fits your idea of ‘grey’ characters, it would be them.

Yeah you’re seeing what you want to see if you ask me.

Luke’s personality is almost exactly the same from the first line of dialogue to the last. He’s a good guy who wants to save the day from start to finish, like in any other forgettable hero-movie, and he shows only sparse signs of substance, like when he trains on Dagobah and gets annoyed for half a scene because he can’t do stuff- but that’s it, he still bounces right back and keeps trying, because that’s what dull hero tropes do.

Only thing that made Star Wars such a success was the sci-fi backdrop and the cutting edge special effects that supported it, because if they just ran with the story in a usual setting it would have been forgotten by the masses in under a year on account of being a timeless, done-to-death story.

That said, probably best if we just ‘agree to disagree’, since I don’t see us agreeing on anything else :’)

Luke’s first line of dialogue is whining about going to get some power converters and hanging out with his friends aka typical teenager. Luke by Return Of The Jedi is a serious young man with a heavily destiny weighing him down, trying to convert his father and stop the Emperor, who in the end barely survives, becoming a balanced, calm Jedi.

But yeah we could and likely will go around and round forever. Please don’t misunderstand, I actually like discussions like this. I intended no disrespect and do get some of your viewpoints. I enjoy the debate and discussion, and am glad to be part of a fandom deep enough to be able to do so and still maintain a level of dignity. I hope that as new films and shows appear, the fandom will continue long past my few remaining years and be something my kid and grandkids will enjoy. My 4 year old already loves Leia and wants Dada to make her a pink X-Wing.

Heh, I imagine Star Wars will continue well beyond our lifetimes. It’s well-cemented in pop culture, and for all it’s floors it’s got a special sort of place in society that I don’t think it’s ever likely to lose.

It is one of the very first American fairy tales, something wholly created from us, using the various backgrounds, ideas, cultures and stories of the countries that came before us and helped create this country. Not just some folk lore around real American events or based on some bizarre alternative Earth history, but a whole new universe, one where Good and Evil are real forces and even the most common of people could become heroes of legend.

Hell yeah, I think Star Wars will outlive us, and inspire our grandchildren’s children.

Oh GODS, Ilum…I feel so bad for the poor Republic players, constantly outnumbered, thanks to a complete lack of a population balancing system, and a staff so heavily promoting the Sith Empire (look at some of the early video and plays. Most SWTOR staff are wearing Empire t-shirts and playing Empire characters.), that most new players defaulted to the Dark Side. Nowadays it is a lot more balanced but Ilum was…bad.

i loved ilum but the paper engine couldnt handle it. what was worse was the large group of people trade killing lol

no because it’s not a real battle from the sounds of it, rather it sounds more like it’s just who spams light or dark more. which of course likely means everyone on a server will select one side or the other just to max things out

i wish but this sounds like carebear pve shit no pvp that ive heard of i dont think the engine could handle it even if there was

“Suddenly, you may begin to see dark side enemies emerging and attacking,
such as a Sith Lord ready to strike against the Jedi Temple on
Coruscant .”

Would be cool if such emerging threats were world boss-level. Knowing BWA though, they’ll just drop a bunch of champions, and call it a day. Coruscant champion-level, too, because level sync.

I find it abit silly how you will need 8-16 players to take down this single boss, it is kinda immersion breaking.

I mean, our character’s defeated Arcann, so if this boss can beat us 1v1, then why the **** didn’t he go against Arcann himself? lol

It will be the same champions they use in the conquest missions. those ones you see at random bases on planets that drop flagship plans.
They needed multiple people to kill because the HP was in the millions.

I wish there was an option to fight for a neutral world without force/users.

RP stuff but my non-force users are damn fed-up with the constant wars the DvL conflict causes. It’s enough that technology creates weapons capable of destroying a planet, I don’t need some individual running around in the galaxy with the power to annihilate all of it at once.

Jesus this sounds really cool.
Random lords appearing and attacking places for you to defend. Sounds exciting.
Hope the vendor gear is interesting enough.

Notice how they said “a sith Lord ready to strike”, not “striking”. I’m afraid this might be just a mini-boss that spawns and sits there waiting to be killed by players.

I’m leaning towards this thought because scripting them to actually assault the temple requires a lot of flexibility. What if noone shows up? Should the invaders be able to cut their way through? What is the destination? What are thy going to do there? Again, just sit, waiting to be killed? Then what’s the point of invading? Or should they be locked in a duel with an NPC, where, as you’ve seen before, they simply deal no damage to each other and animate their attacks?

you have to que for it anyways doesnt matter YOU have to start the uprising lol just like in flashpoints and tacticals

Would be the saddest “invasion” in the history of SW. A powerful Sith lord that’s obviously extremely lazy as he takes land on Couscant, walks into a moderately crowded area, then just stands thinking he’s showing off his superior might while all the citizens walk by looking at him like he’s the village idiot.

After a few more DS win, the locals start to refer to him as “the old crazy Darth Fella”. A month or two later he’ll be found in the local cantina, completely wasted while he tells tales of the good ‘ol days when we waged war and terror against the Republic to the other drunks…

it will be the same champions they use in the conquest missions. those ones you see at random bases on planets that drop flagship plans.
They needed multiple people to kill because the HP was in the millions.

I gotta say: this actually has potencial! Mainly the fact that opposite faction enemies randomly spawn in different, unusual locations. It’s been something I was hinting at ever since I started playing games like RIFT or ESO. A recipe for easy, fast group playing.

The whole Light vs Dark thingy doesn’t really move me either way, but the fact that we get to fight something different does.

Credit where it’s due. Nice move.

Think you maybe hoodwinked by Bioware Paulo.
I’d bet its the same champions they use with the conquest missions. Those ones that are at bases just standing there twirling their lightsaber with elite npcs and turrets next to them.
But in this case they wont be at bases but random corners of the map.

Its Bioware masters of the rehash.

the problem is you have to que for it Paulo its not like rift or eso i agree if it was that way would be fun and should have been done years ago. I think most likely it will be like tacticals but just more random

Not to mention another go ’round with the Valkorian Family Blues with the Outlander watching on the sidelines. Also ‘play the same stuff all over again!” but for new pretties locked behind sub and RNG dreck.

I really hope the devs are reading the forums because the natives are pissed. Thread after thread about what a bone headed idea it is to make the end gear RNG not to mention the love over the PVP/WZ comm switch.

Not all of us are pissed. I mean yeah the gear thing kinda sucks but theres a lot of potentional. Im fine with the comm switch. It helps people explore new areas of a game without having the insane need to dedicate farming a whole new set of comms?

New areas for new players yes. That is what this is aimed at. People that have been paying this company for years are stuck doing the same dreck we’ve been doing for the last two +years. Valkorian Family Blues episodes were not engaging, weak writing at best and the expansion is….more of the same? Not to mention they call this whole GC dreck ‘new’ when it is just redoing the same stuff yet again. Because if the devs are really listening to the player base they would note this is NOT going over well. More power to you if you are satisfied but from what I have been reading on the forums does not reflect that. No free loaders there mind you, must sub to post anything in the forums.

I know you have to be subbed to benefit from GC but do you have to be subbed to benefit from choosing a winning allegiance? Yaa it has an impact on your GC and such but it’s seperate. I haven’t resubbed yet for KotET but it still lets me choose an allegiance.

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