SWTOR Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4

Bioware is listing out the player feedback they had received for the class changes in 5.3.

Class Change Feedback in 5.3 and 5.4 | 07.07.2017, 09:18 PM
Hey folks,

One of the topics we have seen come up a bit in the past couple of weeks is all of your feedback regarding Class changes and what is happening with it. We understand we have not kept you updated on the threads where we posted the Class changes so we want to talk through what happens next and how we will use your feedback.

For a multitude of reasons, Class balance is one of the most challenging communication topics. We dislike having to nerf a Class as much as you do, but sometimes we have to do it for the overall health of our game (as we talked about in our “How Class Balance Happens” thread). We understand that no one ever likes to see the effectiveness of their Class reduced. It can change the way you play, take enjoyment out of playing that Class, and make you feel slighted if you believe the changes happened because of another type of gameplay (PvE or PvP) which you don’t even participate in. We are very sensitive to all of these things.

We knew Class changes were a top priority, so we provided insight about how we intended to balance all Classes ahead of next week’s patch. Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks. It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line. Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

Let’s get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

  • Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS – As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  • Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS – Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on “Sorc/Sage bubble” for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  • Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! – Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.


When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

Thanks everyone!

-eric

  • WTF

    They had to lose so many subs that they started to read formus…
    but sorc need to have dps/survival buff also, not only to regen

    Besides we see that Kith(or whats is his name) is actualy do his job. good for them

    • Vanguard

      *Keith? lmao

    • EyesOfGehenna .

      I’m just not sure if nerfing the most popular class is going to stop the game from losing more players or gain them back… I get the whole flavour of the month thing when it comes to people playing the classes not because they’re fun but because they’re on top of the list in numbers, but I’m pretty sure that sorcerors have traditionally been the class that has been the most popular regardless of their DPS or heal output, just because, well, they are inquisitors and they shoot lightning and stuff.

      • De-ranker

        Sorcs have also never experienced what it’s like to be on the bottom of the totem pole. It’s their turn to be GoTM. (Garbage of The Month)

        • EyesOfGehenna .

          Yes they have actually. There have been times when sorc healers were frowned upon and for DPS as well. Still, it makes no difference to my point. My point was and is that this will not have a positive effect on player numbers. The people who are after the FotM will switch classes and those who love the class for what it is and not how high the output is will be sorely disappointed. Class balance doesn’t exist in MMO PvP. It’s a myth. Ticking people off by poor nerfing attempts and causing them to quit playing is not a myth.

          They should’ve learned from other games and realise that it’s best to separate PvP skill sets from PvE skill sets. That would solve a lot of issues by itself.

          • cmonstergt

            That’s where I’m at with Merc/Mando healing. Always been my favorite class to play behind my guardian tank since 2013. I mean, you get to shoot green stuff at people! Sucks that there are going to be so many of them now.

    • his name is Keith, and i honestly rather a bit more proper dps buff. don’t really have much problems staying alive with correct utilities (in pve at least and honestly don’t care about pvp since don’t play it lol)

    • Fred Garvin

      Kith the Overlord of Banality. That’s his official name and title.

  • DerpDude

    “they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative”
    Holy f*****g s**t…Madness is finally getting looked at on their force regen.

    • lol

    • that’s cool. but ffs. fix em death field stacks!!! i want my stacks to only affect MY dots, thank you very much lol.

  • So clearly lightning sorc and marksmanship sniper are meant to be shit. Got it.

    • gua543

      You are never satisfied, are you?

      • Because the 2 DPS specs I enjoy the most, that are the lowest parsing in the game, didn’t get any attention? No, I’m not satisfied…..

    • Jab

      Besides they are the two most boring builds in the game.

      • the are 2 of the most straightforward specs (along with Arsenal Merc); that doesn’t make them boring. Not everyone wants to watch DoTS tick all damn day….

    • Justin

      It would be pretty hard to buff Marksman, they would be way over powered in PVP. Right now good players can still pull 4500-5k DPS in WZ’s with Marksman.

      • Every sniper in 70 pvp is Engineering, don’t fool yourself. Unless you are untouched and tunneling in a Voidstar or something, you’re not doing good DPS on marksmanship…..

        • Justin

          Actually, the trash Snipers run Engineering. The pro’s run Marksman, seen enough MK snipers do 5k DPS in a WZ and rarely see that from the other Sniper specs.

          • You might be right, but that means most of the 70 PVP’ing snipers are trash, because they sure as shit are majority engineering. I’ve seen virulence pop up a little more lately since the recent class changes, but still plenty of swirly fires on the ground. I’ve personally stuck with Marksmanship from Day 1, never even tried Engineering or Virulence. But I mostly PVP as a tank.

  • Sabretooth

    All I want if for the armors to be more solid-seeing capes and loincloth getting all stuck in the body completely ruins my desire to play my current toon

    • Lithari

      Then use a chest piece that doesn’t have a cape? That is what i do, because from experience Bioware doesn’t fix visual bugs, unless it causes a game stopping bug.

      • Sabretooth

        There has been improvements on juggernauts and guardians concerning capes

      • Sabretooth

        Although, it seems to depend the exact cape

    • Sabretooth

      And please fix the cannons

  • Vincent van der Laan

    Lighthing sorc needs a look weak as f barely pull enough dps for some HM ops

    • De-ranker

      Are you using the lightning glitch?

  • Maciej Świątkiewicz

    So Atm Dps of madness/Ballance is same as Arsenal/Gunnery? Interesting

    • of course it’s not lol. Gunnery does better, even after nerf it will be better. because our devs are weird like that and think that buffing an ability that doesn’t even work as intended is a good idea >.>

      • AdjeYo

        Actually Arsenal will at least according to theorycrafting done with the changes, be parsing dead last, so Madness will be outdamaging Arsenal by a decent margin

        • oh? do tell. so far from what i’ve read on the forums, the madness buff = +1.12% dps (and that’s on 2.5 mil dummy based on the top parse of the spec)… so for anyone outside of the maybe top 3-5% sorcs this buff doesn’t mean any actual dps increase, esp since half of it is death field stacks that aren’t even working right half the time (aka when your stacks get consumed by that other sorc or that other sin in your group)
          atm top madness parse: 9386.3, while arsenal does 10339.56
          so does this nerf lower arsenal by a whole 1k?? this seems a bit too harsh >.>

          • Justin

            Arsenal is taking a pretty big nerf, no damage boost on Blazing Bolts and some other things. Arsenal and I/O for that matter are taking big nerfs. I play I/O a lot and this is two expansions in a row where I/O has gotten a huge nerf. I/O won’t have any burst now with them lowering the auto crit from 30% to 15%.

            • well i suppose nothing more to it than wait and do some testing once it’s live lol. cause we can guess as much as we want, but well, not like the 5.3 is in distant future 😛

  • Christine Pacer

    They need to look at the corruption/seer in real world pve content. No just pvp. They would realise it’s needs a buff not nerf. It’s hasn’t got anything on the mercs and operatives. Especially with force pools.

    • De-ranker

      youre joking right? Sorc has better burst than merc and more sustained healing than operatives.

      • Christine Pacer

        I use all 3 healers in my guild for pve content. The sorc is by far my favourite. And yes it does have wicked burst. But by no means is it any form of sustainable. The “free” healing of the merc and ops (kolto shots + diagnostic scan) are far more viable and the kolto probes of the operative are invaluable. The shield of the sorc has nothing on them and the kolto shield of the merc. In harder fights the sorcs ability to keep up with derp moments is almost non existant running out of force very quickly with no real way to replenish without a debuff. Where as the mercs and operatives have vent heat and adrenaline boost to get back there pools. In an operation I’ll take my op and merc anyway over my sorc because of that reason.

        • Half Baked

          This is a srs L2P issue. Sorc bubble is much better than Kolto Shells of a merc because it absorbs damage. You use it to prevent a big hit and/or keep them alive while you catch up. As for getting their resource pools, you’re again mistaken. Vindicate/Consuming Darkness has no cooldown. You can basically use it with no negative benefits or debuff if you have Resplendance/Force Surge (Which you basically get stacks of for critting Innervate, which Force Potency guarantees) . There’s no reason a sorc should be out of force and if it so happens they are, they shouldn’t be staying that way for long. That’s just bad play, and bad play will similarly hurt you as an op or merc

          Sorcs in absolutely no way need a buff. Maybe the nerf to them is too much but they were clearly overperforming

          • TheCulprit

            agreed. I had a sorc healer too. Reads to me like a player using starparse or something like that where the Sorc heal numbers are much lower than the merc/operative, but only because the shield doesn’t show up in on the score sheet. A shield absorb 10K damage +5K heal shows up as 5K heals. The merc would have had to heal the whole 15K, so “better” parse number. Effective heal % also is lower since the sorc is preventing damage AND healing vs just healing.

            My sorc was always put on the tank taking the most damage, especially unpredictable damage where the burst was most useful. Let the other healers do the AoE on the ranged dps.

            • converted

              Sorcs have felt ‘off’ since 4.0 – to the extent that I ditched mine for a merc and won’t go back. This nerf is just another nail in the coffin.

          • Vincent van der Laan

            WTF U on about lol sorc lowest dps outputt and here you telling they need a nerf haha fucking funny lol lighthing sorc is weak as f 🙂 easy to intterupt is one not only that but dps outputt is like 5 to 6 k below merc and that with merc useing 236 and sorc 248 just saying

            • Paulo Gomes

              I think he was referring to healing, not dps. Just sayin’…

            • Tony

              yup I thought it was weak before too

          • Dianiss

            It absolutely **IS** too much. They already did a balancing nerf to Seer Sage as recently as v4.5, but then reduced all the Force costs in 5.0 and act all surprised that the class is performing better than before. Why aren’t they going back to the 4.5 levels (they seemed to be happy with it then, and frankly so was I) and re-evaluating from THERE?

            On top of that, they say things like “We are increasing the Force cost of Deliverance from 45 to 50” . . . WHEN IT’S *NOT* 45 RIGHT NOW, IT’S 41 YOU IDIOTS.

            They are OBVIOUSLY overshooting the mark when they are working off of false assumptions about where the class is NOW–assumptions that anyone with a Sage or Sorcerer can check in 5 minutes.

            I called them out on this mistake in the official forums, but got no response to that point.

          • Tony

            as you point out even Christine an expert level player could use this technique you describe to be “overperforming” but how many players have it figured out like you? she is better than an average player in the game..sur the nerfs either adequately or sometimes till overkill the performance of the perfect player but we are not all perfect players!

        • De-ranker

          You have the Innervate stacks that can be converted for force, which makes it incredibly easy to manage force.

          • A Guy

            Not as easy as it used to be though. It got nerfed a while back and now its nerfed again. Sorcs are gonna have to spam for more force now.

  • Jep Fareborn

    Guardian / Juggernaut Tanks (or Tanks in general) need a special Raid Buff, like the other classes have. Not enough tanks in this game – that, and people don’t want to learn the special tank mechanics for certain OPs.

  • certz

    Can’t say I am happy with all the changes, but what about nerfs to NiM bosses? Are any being done? There are some DPS checks that are almost undoable at the moment and now they are nerfing DPS. If there are no changes to NiM OPs coming with this patch, then, again I say, BioWare does not know what the f^*$ they are doing because they do not play the game enough to have a clue.

    • Vladislav

      You can forget about any content pre-4.0, because they will never touch it

      • Sad But True yes… Swtor’s Eaware right there.

    • Jeezyx

      What des Check is undoable ? I mean nearly Every content was cleared in the First week of the Expansion?!?!

      • certz

        I said ‘almost’ undoable. Styrak and TFB to name two right off the top of my head are serious DPS checks – all four DPS need to be doing north of 9K. So, if they nerf all the DPS that is going to be difficult or impossible without a nerf to the bosses.

        I know groups that have cleared everything in NiM – I am not one of them, but I am in a good group that has cleared some. I do not know your background, but if you are just saying “content has been cleared” and you have not personally done it, then you do not know what you are talking about. If you have done it, then you should know how almost perfect your group needs to be to clear that content.

        • Roscoe

          The DPS check on Styrak with 248 gear is almost non existent. I have cleared all the NiM bosses with several groups, and none of them are even near “perfect.” The bosses are hard for a reason, hence the name “Nightmare.” I mean no offense in my comment, but most of the bosses are already dumbed down with ability bloat, reflects, and being one tier of gear ahead of what they are tuned for. Hope this makes some sense.

  • Vladislav

    “We are very sensitive to all of these things.”
    You are not

  • Justin

    Merc/Mando DPS specs are taking a pretty large nerf to their damage output and burst. Arsenal will drop big time with Blazing Bolts doing 14.89% less damage, crit increase going from 30% to 15% for both I/O and Arsenal and I/O’s DoT’s doing about 10% less each. The “3 lives” won’t matter now with their damage being dropped so much. Fury Mara’s will destroy Merc’s for sure.

    Sorc healing needed to be nerfed, its far too easy compared to the other two healing classes.

    Engineering Sniper was the most OP class in the game, players just didn’t realize it. Most aren’t good with it but when you run into one that is they are impossible to beat especially as a Melee class.

    Madness needed a little boost so does Lighting, I can see lighting getting theirs in 5.4

    The root problem will always remain the same, bad players in PvP not knowing how to play their classes and crying about it causing nerfs to classes by Bioware. Operatives have never been the same since the game launched!

    • Tony

      Here is the
      problem..3 lives really? How do I do that? So basically merc is majorly nerfed
      damage wise but don’t worry the 3 lives effect that master players get that other
      PVP players complain about is still doable..but since Im not proficient on that
      level I have no three lvies and massively reduced DPS which for a guy that
      grinds like hell and spend s good deal of his life gearing up to do more damage
      this is just depressing..here are the major two flaws..All these changes are
      made to affect the gameplay based on as you can read above people that have
      exact rotations efficiency to the point of heat management..and based on PVP
      expert level players..in order for you to only be affected as much as the
      example master level players you will have to optimize your rotation and use it
      as expertly as them and even then you have been cut down to size and in some
      cases it appears to be over nerfed.The other completely un fun thing is they do
      this in the past with such ignorance to changing all the flashpoint and OP boss
      powers so when you get majorly nerfed you spend a lot of time getting your butt
      totally kicked on the ops and flashpoints where you are no longer a match for
      them as a group..They don’t take middle ability level players into account and they
      sure as heck don’t take into account new players who have no clue how to
      maximize their class to achieve the kind of damage that these nerfs are being
      based on

    • Suriaka

      Fury marauders will destroy a merc? I shudder to think about what level of trash tier mercs you must have on your server. Merc was #1 in the solo game in 4.0 and it still is, and for as long as it has its current utility set and ability set it always will be.

  • HMHero

    Do other MMOs mess with their classes ‘balance’ this much? Ive never played another MMO but this seems excessive.

    • Firbolgar Avangerson

      Yes, more so actually. However, those changes usually come as a steady stream of small changes and not in big changes like what is happening here.

    • Megacode

      They do but in smaller increments and not in the middle of an expansion. Swtor devs should’ve waited until 6.0 for changes this large.

    • Tanesis

      As posted above yeah but smaller and more frequently. Hopefully ‘Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3’ is kept to

  • Megacode

    Sorc/Sage needed a slight nerf but they went way overboard. Healers are the #1 target in PvP and because so need a little bang to the buck as far as heals. Sorc/Sage specifically is a squishy class with less dc cd’s as other classes. Based on pure survivabilty my 230 Combat Medic stays alive longer than my 248 Sorc because of their utility when doing PvP against other geared 248’s. With the nerf this large they should’ve buffed our defensives slightly IMO

    • Sean Jackson

      “Sorc/Sage needed a slight nerf” I stopped reading there because you obviously have no clue what you’re talking about…

      • gua543

        Lmao, I see you haven’t entered a warzone since 4.0

        • Megacode

          Lol, I’m sure he doesn’t play a healer too

          • Suriaka

            I play a healer. I’m the best ranked healer on my server (#1 player on the server board in 2 of the 3 seasons I seriously competed in). I’m saying that so you can’t say I don’t play a healer, not to brag, because that’s the first thing I was predicting you’d think after you read the following:

            Sorc has been hilariously overpowered since 3.0. A full head and shoulders above the other two healers, and it’s why in 3.0, after maining merc healer since launch, I had to make the switch to become competitive because merc became flat out nonviable in PvP.

            Since then it’s just dominated. It wasn’t uncommon for me to facetank 4-5 people solo, unguarded, unsupported. It had TWO focus breaks, one of which only had a 45 second cooldown, when merc had none and operative had one. It had better singletarget burst than any other healer. It had better AoE burst than any other healer. It had better utility than any other healer. It had better resource management than any other healer (Though in 4.0 it became slightly less overpowered – in season 4 consumption didn’t even cost a global cooldown) and was just.. flat out superior in every way. The only place scoundrel could compete in was team ranked, and was still fairly inferior to sorc with most comps.

            The sorc nerf was bound to happen and it happened the best way it could. It nerfed the most overpowered ability, it made resource management less trivial… if it were up to me, sorc healer would lose phase walk too but I understand that puts sorc DPS at a little bit of a disadvantage.

            Sorc healer plays fine in PvP now. If your 230 merc healer stays alive better it’s because you’re probably a pretty shitty sorc but also mainly merc is easier to play thanks to the sheer number of godmode abilities it has. Outputwise sorc is still on top because merc has had fuck all for burst and AoE since before 3.0 – its only strength is in sustained singletarget, and even still it can be easily shut down. Its focus break isn’t even really a focus break as it’s still vulnerable to AoEs.

            I’m saying this as someone who plays all healers fairly actively and knows many other top tier healers around. No healer should be able to facetank 4 good DPS until the end of time. With the amount burst DPS has been nerfed over the past two expansions, the sorc nerf can only be a good thing as far as good gameplay is concerned.

            • Megacode

              LOL okay overkill but whatever toots your horn!! Played a ton of WZ’s over the last few days and actually agree with having the nerfs. Don’t really notice much of a difference as far as being able to do my job and heal like pre 5.3. However I definitely noticed the need to manage force more strictly and use the right heal for the right job otherwise you’ll find yourself running out of Force. So I am definitely sticking with my Sage/Sorc..Good stuff!!

    • Tanesis

      Balance tends to be, or should be rather, an ongoing thing. 5.3 seems to be BW realigning everything aggressively after spending not enough time on class balance for a while. 5.4 will be far more nuanced I expect.

    • Senate-kin

      The healing nerf was justified. I’d like to see an actually decent buff for Lightning/Telekinetics though. It’s still one of my favourite specs but I haven’t played it in ages because it’s absolute gargabe.

      • Megacode

        Nerf wasn’t bad at all , agree!! Almost hardly even notice it. Just need to be diligent with force management

  • Megacode

    Ok we’re just fine. Ran through about 20 WZ’s and don’t notice much change. Just need to focus more on force management. 👍🏻

    • Guest

      run a couple of ops and then get back to us

      • Megacode

        Done!! Not too shabbby but I have been healing for eight years so I have to account some skill!!

        • Guest

          Yeah i ran a couple of veteran and hard flashpoints myself. As i thought I had to replenish my force a bit more often but it wasnt too bad. Good thing I have a lot of critical and alacrity…

          • Megacode

            Same here. Had to make sure my
            Force regen buff was active

  • Zanwell

    buff lightning we’re still fucked over from 5.0 lol

  • Megacode

    I hear Madness is decent now and fun to play

    • bbc

      lie

  • Pan’s

    Madness sorc only gained 200dps. I will unsub soon and my friend will follow me. Ur buff was a joke and there is no more trust in you bioware

  • Samson

    BIOWARE PLEASE NERF MELEE DPS CLASES ITS RIDICULOUSLY OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Justin

      Melee should be the higher DPS, THEY”RE MELEE. Ranged should always have a slightly lower DPS than Melee.

      • Senate-kin

        It isn’t that simple, sadly. You also have to figure in the amount of utility a class brings with it, as well as the mobility.

        Case and point: Sorcs/Sages. With how high their utility was, they had way too much damage. Granted, they went way too overboard with nerfing them, but a nerf was indeed needed.

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