• Shamayah

    Sigh… So much interesting lore lost in raids and only available to a fraction of the playing community…
    Com on Arena Net, when will we have a raid story mode ? Don’t even treat us with special rewards on this, we’ll be fine with just a damn story mode so everyone can appreciate this content and only, later on, when full ascended, proceed to the real challenge.
    Raids are the high end content of this game, in terms of pure gameplay but story telling too. I mean, they msut have all the stats right ? They actually know that hella lot (the vast majority) of their players is missing all of this right ?
    Com on, every other succesful MMO figured this issue out, just do the same

    • Kite

      I believe they made a good choices with the stories they show.
      With the exception of the first 3 (and perhaps this recent one), all other raids follow stories left over from GW1, that players who just joined with GW2 might not get the reference. If you can clear a Raid, then you are enough of a hardcore fan to have played GW1 or at least researched it.

      • Beebless

        Not a gw1 player nor interested in the lore here, and i cleared all the raids except dhuum. The raid itself are not that hard and similar to fractals but the boss has more health. Its communicating and playing with other 9 players are the challange. IMO, gw2 has more of those Mr.knowitall and Mrs.Lookatmeimperfect compare to other game. 1 wipe? There will be one person starts spreading negativity and ruins the mood. 2 wipes then someone leave and we waste time to find a replacement that cant read the LFG, dont know what to do but pretend to know.

      • Don36669

        I don’t know. The White Mantle are pretty prominent in the first 3 Raid wings (in fact, it’s all about what they did throughout the years and what it has resulted in). And the White Mantle is pretty much a big leftover from GW1.

        Also, as a Raid player myself I can safely say there are equally as many players who don’t give a shit about lore or some other game they never played (and is entirely different from GW2). They just want the most challenging content, that’s all.

    • Sty

      To be fair, you can easily access most of the lore by joining a cleared instance and visiting.

  • Suan

    I bought WoW 2 months ago, and I’ll be honest all ArenaNet needs to do is change a few classes/specializations. Give us roles: Tank, Healer, DPS and make LFR like system when we simply que as a tank lets say and then game will find us the rest of the team. It could be used in dungeons, fractals and most importantly raids.
    – Dungeons simply would benefit from it as you just que for a dung and go on with your business, the standard 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps combo would be more than enough.. it could just simply be 5 players qued without roles even since dungs are not that hard.
    – Fractals would require the roles [1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps] but also the que would check if your agony resistance is high enough.
    – Raids would benefit the most from this system since LFR raiding would be obviously a lot easier than normal, current raiding but also would give only 30%~ of the rewards. Rare drop items would be even rarer, and the tokens, sigils.. whatever it is called.. the stuff that you can get 12 per week would be made that through LFR you can get only 4 per week, and if you want more you need to do normal, higher tier raiding.
    WIth LFR system tons of people would jump to raiding, and I bet a big number would start looking for raiding guilds to get better rewards, get legendary armor faster etc.
    LFR would allow players to learn the tactics, positioning and what not, without fear of failure, and screams from the elitis players that raiding community in GW2 unfortunately is full of.
    It would also allow everyone to check out the story, and lore behind raids, give a ton of players the missing mastery level and those that don’t have the time to spend on higher tier raiding, go hardcore about it.. still a chance to play’em and maybe get some small rewards.

    I truly belive that if ArenaNet wanted to, they could do it more or less easly. The most important thing would be a balance change to classes and specs to create real, proper tank builds. We have like 3 nice healer builds that are working right now and obviously a ton of dps builds that are ready and waiting.

    In my opinion this kind of system would only benefit the game and players, and I think that this should be top 3 priority things to do for ArenaNet right now. To open the gates to raiding for players but also make things easier for dungeons and fractals.

    Apologies for any grammar mistakes.

    • John Kucing

      I totally disagree about the trinity shit. It was and still is the best way for boredom… GW2 bring a real fresh air by breaking that ‘golden’ rule.
      If you want to play in such a way. Enjoy! There are a plethoric bunch of MMORPG on the market using this kind of gameplay.

      • Suan

        Just like I said to visher, I’m more about the easy raids and auto que system to safe time than the “roles” itself. Do I think the roles are great? Not really, I went dps in WoW and then checked tank month and a half later. My tank has from 1 second to 1 minute que where my dps has from 20 to 60 minutes que. 😀 The roles.. or trinity you call it? simply poped to my head as the easies solution and safety for new players in raiding.

    • DocFlunder

      or u just stay in wow and be done with it. the addition of healers already destroyed what was quite well banaced by turning almost everything into a faceroll where u barely have to dodge let alone adapt to different situations. theres a ton of games out there with ur holy trinity, we dont need gw2 to turn into one as well, which would turn it into a completely different game alltogether. already miss those days when everyone was responsible for his own hp-bar and utillity-skills had an actual meaning beyond adding dps. that said, u can already play as tank, heal, dps, theres just no point in it outside of raids. and im pretty sure even there they could have come up with different mechanics other than increasing the damage u receive to justify the existence of healers/tanks, which is a pretty cheap way to achieve this. and all just to cater to those mindless wow-players that were whining since ancient times. if u miss ur holy trinity that much, than pls by all means stay in wow.

      • Suan

        I quite literally said that I just bought WoW 2 months ago, so it is not mine nor is the trinity or whatever you call it. I am with Guild Wars series for 13 years now. From what I saw in the raid videos, players use some tank-like builds, healers and then dps anyway so I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Even if we throw away the idea with team builds they idea of easy raids and low rewards could still work and benefit the game and playerbase. your response shows what kind of people wait for the potential new raid players. Low bar raiding would allow these players to learn tactics know what to do at ____ boss, what’s gonna happen at 50% hp etc. So to be honest if people hate roles that much I think that the “whatever builds, lets roll with rare gear, low bar raid run” still would be great.

    • visher

      My friend joined GW2 because of the lack of trinity, apparently trinity gameplay is a boring stagnation. GW2 brought something unique to the world of MMOs with its combat and blah-blah, deal with it. The absense of trinity is like the whole idea of the game.
      Raiding isn’t that hard, some ppl are just whiny shits. Don’t be like that. If you want something out of raids then join a learning raid group/guild.
      Oh, and anet said that any easy mode for raids is not an option (although i think they actually could benefit from making one with no/shit-ass rewards).

      • Suan

        Yeah, my intention was more to create the low tier raids for people to see what’s it about and stuff and make the que system to not waste time in finding group or sitting in one place and praying that somebody will play this old dungeon. The roles stuff simply poped to my mind as the easiest solution because of my last 2 months spend in WoW I guess.

        • Ares Zax

          I agree that raids need to be made more accessible, but I think a better way of going about it is to simply make raids “easier”. It doesn’t have to be a flat nerf to raid encounters, but suppose we instead increased raids to 15 man squads, instead of 10. With 5 additional players, the burden of trying to meet strict DPS benchmarks is lessened (and in fact, I think the Enrage timer for raid bosses is in fact a VERY bad idea which should be scrapped), which in turn means that you can afford to bring a wider variety of builds for more variation and novelty, which will help keep raids fresh and interesting, a must if you want players to keep doing them for years to come.

          As an example, let’s look at dungeons. Dungeons were actually in the exact same place that raids are today; you basically had to bring meta builds or you’d be kicked from any PUGs you tried to join. (Back then, it was “Zerker or GTFO”.) It was the only elitist content in an otherwise casual game, and it was by and large ignored by the majority of the player base as a result.

          And then, HoT came out, and the introduction of elite specs and Ascended gear meant that the power level of the average player went up. And suddenly, dungeons became fun again, because the increased power meant that you could afford to bring a team of newbies into dungeons, as long as you had 1 or 2 good players capable of coaching (or carrying, if need be) the rest. You could still complete dungeons in about 30 mins or less, and the newbies gained valuable experience they could bring to future runs. If dungeons hadn’t had their rewards nerfed so badly, I suspect we’d see a lot more people running them every day.

          • Suan

            That’s a good idea as well. Hey, I’m up for anything that could open the raid ”gates” to all the players. ArenaNet must know that the current situation is not so great and need to change something.
            One day, hopefully.

          • Don36669

            I don’t know if it’s what you meant to imply, but ascended gear was introduced long before HoT came out. In fact, they started introducing ascended gear as early as 3 months after launch.

            The reason dungeons are so easy now is twofold. First, ANet abandoned that content 5 years ago, pretty soon after Fractals were introduced, which is now their new dungeon system. Second, elite specializations have made dungeons easier because the specs are more powerful than core builds, by and large.

            • Ares Zax

              Indeed they were, but Ascended gear didn’t really start becoming commonplace until after HoT’s release. Before that, they were kind of viewed as “only necessary if you do Fractals, or if you absolutely want to spend crazy amounts of money (for that point in time) for a small increase in power”. Remember, this was the time when Bolts of Silk cost close to 8s, and getting straight Ascended material drops hadn’t been introduced yet.

              So, as a result, many players simply did not bother getting Ascended and just stuck to Exotics. But after HoT, the game started giving players more direct access to Ascended via things like the Elite Spec weapon collections, and direct Ascended material drops from the LS3 maps.

              • Don36669

                Ascended gear is still only really necessary for Fractals (because of Agony Resistance). You don’t need it for open world and you don’t need it for Raids either. The fact that people make themselves believe that, doesn’t make it true.
                Ascended drops have been in the game far longer than S3 maps. The most obvious examples are the fragments, ore and dust needed for ascended crafting. But ascended boxes have dropped years before HoT was released. HoT gave us more access to it, but the experience that it grew more after HoT is a personal one, because I myself and people I know have been gathering ascended gear long before October 2015.

                Instanced content will always be approached this way. A meta for the best gear possible, speed clears, etc. That’s not to say it’s the only way to do it, but there’s no stopping the meta culture. It’s in every game and GW2 has had it since launch (dungeons -> Fractals -> Raids). For these people Raids are the ultimate content. They are part of the community as well and chasing them away by nerfing their preferred content will still be a loss to GW2. These are also often the most vocal part of the community, with streams and videos commenting on the games they play, so their voices are more likely to be heard than the voices of world boss farmers, explorers, etc. The game isn’t any worse off since Raids were introduced almost 3 years ago, so I feel safe in saying that Raids are in a good position. The fact that not everyone can do them is not a negative to the game at all. It never was for dungeons and Fractals either, and they’ve had their detractors as well (in fact, I still hear and read complaints about Fractals, but the game doesn’t seem to suffer for it at all). This whole “everything needs to be accessible to everyone” mentality feels like a millennial’s mentality. But it’s just the simple fact of life: not everything is for everyone, and not everyone can do everything.

              • Ares Zax

                It may not be true, but because the majority of raiders believe it, it makes it functionally true because realistically newer players who want to raid will only get accepted if they “match up” to benchmarks in terms of gear and builds.

                Again, I’m not contesting that Ascended has been around for a long time before HoT’s release. My point was that Ascended gear is much easier to obtain now than it was in the past, and that factor combined with power creep from elite specs has meant that formerly restrictive content like dungeons has now become much more accessible to a wider range of players than before, resulting in more players doing the content and keeping them invested by giving them new things to do.

                Yes, there will likely always be a meta, but what I question is the need for the meta to really be the only viable way for difficult content to be completed. For instance, you’ll notice that all meta builds more or less come down to just a few stat spreads: Berserker for power, Viper’s for condi, Harrier’s/Minstrel’s for healing (depending on if Toughness is a factor), and Commander’s/Minstrel’s for tanking. Where does leave the 20+ other stat spreads? (Not to mention the dozens of runes/sigils that never see any use.) I’m not saying that raids or that the meta builds need to be nerfed, but why can’t these unloved stats and runes/sigils get buffed so that we can see them at least become viable for end-game content? As another example, let’s say that 30k is more or less the benchmark for DPS in raids. Most other non-meta builds will struggle to break 10k or even 5k. So why not boost those other builds so that they can reach, say, 20k if played well? The meta would still be the meta, but a Minionmancer or Turret Engi could still do enough damage to basically not be dead weight and be accepted into raid clears. Or heck, maybe even go the other way altogether and just create a squad that is SO tanky/healpacked that the boss simply cannot kill the party, and just whittle it down slowly. That’s what I want to see for raids: multiple ways of completing the encounter, and not just every boss basically being a “have enough DPS, know the mechanics, have just enough tanking/healing to not die” scenario.

                And finally, yes, not everything will be for everyone, but remember this too. As a business, ANet needs to earn the maximum return for their investment, and making content that only 10% (or maybe even less) of their playerbase regularly plays is a TERRIBLE return on investment. (If I was a business owner and I had a team working on a product that only 10% of my customers bought who paid the same fees as everyone else did, I’d shut down that team immediately for being unprofitable and reassign them to more profitable ventures.) I suspect this is why we have not seen CMs for the two new fractals; there were just too few Fractal players doing them to justify the time and manpower being spent to create them.

                So beware, the exact same thing could happen to raids. If not enough people are doing them to justify the costs that go into making them (and the odds of this grow ever year as GW2 ages and players get lured away by newer, shinier games, or just real life concerns), ANet may simply decide to cut their losses and stop making raids.

  • lore

    I know I am in the minority on this but- I think adding the raids was a major mistake. I feel like it has tanked the game. I can’t put my finger on it why or how, but it changed the community in a bad way.

    I would love to see profit numbers from pre raid compared with after raids, I feel like the numbers will bear me out.

    I like raids and still raid in WOW with my friends, but they are a bit dated at this point. Even WOW sees less and less raid participation each x-pac. Just look at the “world’s first mythic race.” It’s nowhere near what it once was.

    The GW2 combat had a complexity (since each character was essentially all roles) that other mmo’s lacked. The move to a trinity makes the game play boringly simplistic.

    They had a good thing going with fractals- so good in fact that WOW even stole the idea and rebranded it as “mythic keystones” and it a smashing success there as well.

    They initially pushed this game as “no trinity/raids, positive community.” I would consider the game very successful.

    Why would you change that now? Just seems like a bad decision and poorly thought out decision all around. You have to stick with what you sold the game as- people want what they were told they were getting. You don’t want the plumber to come to your house to fix the sink and instead- he pulls out a sander and starts doing your floor…….. It just makes no sense.

    • Ares Zax

      I think it basically boils down to this: If you watch the “GW2 Manifesto” video, GW2 was originally advertised as “the MMO for casual gamers”, a sort of no-grind, low-stress, hop into the game and take a break from it and come back whenever you feel like it attitude. A lot of gamers bought into it and joined for this exact reason (I was one of them). However, as the years went by it’s become fairly obvious that ANet has started to try and chase the traditional MMO gamerbase as well, adding in things like Ascended gear, raids, and stretching out the grind for new content. This has left a lot of the players who joined on the premise that GW2 was going to be different feeling quite disgruntled, maybe even betrayed, and it’s why we saw such a backlash when HoT first came out. Raids and hard content do appeal to segments of the game community, yes, but it’s not what the majority of the original player base of core GW2 came for. (In fairness to ANet, however, I am not privy to the financial workings behind the scenes. Maybe they just couldn’t survive on the casual playerbase and needed to pull up numbers. That said, the fact that they’re scrapping the next expansion and going straight into LS5 suggests to me that their new Black Lion gemstore model is paying BIG dividends.)

      For the record, I do raid occasionally and am slowly working my way towards Legendary armor, but I would not call myself an active raider, and even then I am still very much the exception in the guild I’ve been in since GW2 launch. Out of maybe 100+ players, 30 of whom are active players who are on nearly every day, there’s only about 3 or 4 of us who do raids. (Only 1 out of those 4 does full raid clears every week.)

    • IchbinVol

      You’re not in the minority. Most ppl hate the raiding community. They are the absolute, pieces of human garbage, in the GW2 community. I understand not wanting a scrub to ruin your run, but do we REALLY need absolutely everything for the low tier raids? Including food, buffs, etc? I remember doing them when they first started, and having no issues. I come back a year later, and it felt like I left GW and started playing LoL again. Like my tried and true build + full ascended wasnt enough to hang with their big, throbbing, hardcore e-peens.

    • Don36669

      GW2 was never advertised as a no Raid MMO. It was also never advertised as a MMO that does/would not have challenging content. Back in the day, dungeons were the challenging content. Then they added Fractals and then Raids. It was never meant to be something for the entire community, just like sPvP is not something for the entire community but is still in the game. Plus, MMO’s change over the years. WoW isn’t what it used to be at the start either.

      As for IchbinVol stating that the raiding community is the absolute of human garbage, well, thank you. To me, generalizing a part of your community you aren’t even familiar with as absolute garbage, that is garbage. Being a piece of shit is a personality trait, not a Raid trait. So trust me when I say that not everyone who raids is like this. I don’t know where this saltiness is coming from, but whatever your experiences they never cover all the bases. Also, there are no low tier raids. Raids are raids, period.

      Arex Zax: The next expansion wasn’t scrapped. It was the community’s expectation that after Season 4 a new expansion would be released, because they did the same after Seasons 2 and 3. There has never been any announcement of an expansion after Season 4, nor has it ever been hinted at. Something that wasn’t announced can’t be scrapped. And of course the gemstore (which isn’t new in any way) pays dividends. If it hadn’t, the game would’ve been shut down. It’s where a non-subscription game gets their revenue from.
      Are casual players not enough to sustain the game? Maybe not. If casual players are the entire playerbase and they are the kind of people you describe (as in, taking a break and coming back whenever you like) then yes, those people aren’t enough to keep a game afloat. It’s dedicated players who keep a game alive, not someone who logs in every other week to wander around open world maps to do events and kill some stuff. That is not a judgement of those players, it’s just true. The kind of casual you are describing is the opposite of being invested in the game. And if you’re a non-subscription game, people who come around once every while will not keep the lights on. It’s people who come back on a frequent, maybe even daily, bases to do daily Fractals, daily world bosses/metas, weekly raids, etc. who keep the game afloat. People who have long term goals to pursue in game. The very definition of casual (relaxed and unconcerned, not regular or permanent) does not sound like something you can count on.

      • Ares Zax

        Bear in mind that outside of the gem store, expansions are the only way for ANet to earn a large chunk of direct revenue. (As a 6 year old MMO, I suspect ANet is not going to get any sizeable population hopping into the game outside of unusual events like the Bless fiasco, and even then, I suspect most people will just download the free-to-play version and only upgrade if they REALLY like the game.) So by not going with an expansion, that has to mean that the new gemstore model is enough to keep their financial operations going.

        The gemstore actually wasn’t doing very well in the past. There was this post by MOB on Reddit straight up admitting that they needed more players to buy gems for cash. It culminated in the Mountgate scandal, where it was blatantly obvious that ANet was doing its best to try and squeeze more gems/money out of the player base. Then, somebody in their monetization team came up with the brilliant idea of the Statuettes (which changes the BLC lottery gamble to a “even if you get crap, you still get Statuettes which you can eventually trade for what you want” situation). Since that was done, I’ve noticed that Black Lion chests have steadily climbed in value to around 5-6 silver today. That’s remarkable considering that chests used to be worth 1 silver or less, and considering the frequency of chest drop rates. There must be hundreds of chests being opened every day.

        As far as dedicated players are concerned, yes, these players DO “fill the game world” in terms of keeping it occupied. However, are they REALLY the players keeping the game afloat financially? That I have my doubts about, because these same players are also the ones who make the most gold, and thus have the resources to trade for gems. Remember that 1 player in my guild, the only one who does full raid clears every week? He has NEVER spent any money on gems. EVER. He earns his gems solely by trading the vast amounts of gold he has from doing end-game content whenever gem prices are low. And I’ll wager that most other dedicated, end-game players are the same.

        • Don36669

          In my opinion the call for an easy mode raid comes from the belief that everything has to be accessible to everyone, or at the least liked by everyone. But this is a system that will never work. Making them more accessible means taking the challenge out of it to a large degree. To what degree then? So far that people only have to auto-attack and can win a raid encounter? How low do you aim? Because no matter how low you aim, there will always be people who will still find it too difficult. Give them a inch, they’ll demand a mile. There’s no end to that process. Raids are what they are and ANet have already stated there will not be an easy mode, so people will just have to take it as it is and accept that not everyone is for everyone.
          People all have different interests, so you have to present any community with different things to occupy different kinds of people. Raids, in GW2 or any other game, have never been designed to be accessible to everyone, and it’s never a majority of a game’s community that plays Raids. But there is a part of the community that wants them, and it is for them that they are implemented. People who won’t or can’t meet the difficulty standard have plenty of other things to do in game. People who want to do Raids either put in the practice and effort, like we all had to when we started. And if they don’t want to do that, that’s fine. But every choice has consequences, and the consequence of not putting in the required effort is that you don’t get to do said content. Make Raids easier and you will lose another part of the community, namely the people that focus on Fractals and Raids (or just one of the two: there are plenty of people who do one but not the other). And just because you know one player who doesn’t spend any money on gems, doesn’t mean all of them don’t. In fact, I’ll turn your wager around: I spend money on gems every now and then, and I’ll wager I’m not the only endgame player who does that. There, a statement made based on the behavior of one player extrapolated to a larger part of the community. Is it true? I don’t know, but I wager it is (just like you wager your statement is), because somehow this game stays afloat, and it’s not thanks to that one guild member you’re talking about. Even if he just buys gems with gold, he can only do that because there are people spending real money on gems. The reason he, you and I can still play the game is because people spend money on it. And yes, it is dedicated players who keep the game afloat. Dedication can mean many things, Investing in the game is one way of showing your dedication. And you’re not likely to spend money on a game you only play sparingly.

          • Ares Zax

            (Having trouble posting a reply to this post, for some reason. Maybe something in the post is tripping the auto-censors or maybe it’s been flagged as spam because of too many posting attempts. I’ll try again later.)

  • IchbinVol

    The raid community are ex-LoL players. Prove me wrong.

    • Toxic GW2 Raider

      Never played LoL. Proven wrong.

    • Trillium

      Hm, I did raid once or twice, but about a year before quitting LoL. Haven’t raided since.
      Do I still qualify?

  • Caleb

    To be fair, you can easily access most of the lore by joining a cleared instance and visiting.

    • Anonymous User

      To be fair, you can easily access most of the PoF lore by waking around the desert and not doing the story. Go do that see how fun that is.

      • Trillium

        About as fun as 100% completion, to be frank.
        Quit a year back, haven’t seen a reason to return yet.

  • RomTibo

    That’s a good idea as well. Hey, I’m up for anything that could open the raid ”gates” to all the players. ArenaNet must know that the current situation is not so great and need to change something. One day, hopefully.

  • Alot

    Much approve.

  • michael

    Bear in mind that outside of the gem store, expansions are the only way for ANet to earn a large chunk of direct revenue. (As a 6 year old MMO, I suspect ANet is not going to get any sizeable population hopping into the game outside of unusual events like the Bless fiasco, and even then, I suspect most people will just download the free-to-play version and only upgrade if they REALLY like the game

    • Guest

      Bruh, someone else wrote this before. Stop biting.

Back to Top